New AI Is More Than Twice as Good at Diagnosing Diseases as Doctors (gizmodo.com)
pmpmpmpm 2 days ago
SJC_Hacker 2 days ago
toomuchtodo 2 days ago
cicko 2 days ago
serf 2 days ago
I don't claim to know whether that could be done feasibly for medicine, I only point out that medicine is uncommon in how it educates.
eqvinox a day ago
Which, coincidentally, won't be solved by AI anytime soon. You'd need a full anthropomorphic robot (it needs to look human for a lot of people to interact with it on a sufficient level), and the ability to distinguish bias from experience from prejudice. (A lot of humans suck at that as well, to be fair.)
Any medical AI at this level will only be as good as the human medical professional using it, and it will make preexistent human-caused bias/prejudice problems much worse.
(Largest one I'm aware of: not being male is an appallingly large handicap to getting properly and correctly diagnosed, even in Western countries.)
ryan_n 2 days ago
Same thing with doctors.
seanmcdirmid 2 days ago
harvey9 a day ago
DoingIsLearning a day ago
2. Even some ideal frontier model is only as accurate as the inputs given for diagnosis, and will typically bias towards said inputs.
3. Multi-modal can handle images but are terrible at image classification unless using dedicated models for each pathology.
4. The very large majority of traning corpus with these companies is in English. There is zero guarantee that said mythical performance is preserved across languages.
5. The very thought of companies with the moral compass of most AI companies accessing and training on your medical records should make anyone pause.
heimidal 2 days ago
dooglius 2 days ago
tim333 a day ago
opo 2 days ago
>...Eight independent evaluators with special expertise in the management of meningitis compared MYCIN's choice of antimicrobials with the choices of nine human prescribers for ten test cases of meningitis. MYCIN received an acceptability rating of 65% by the evaluators; the corresponding ratings for acceptability of the regimen prescribed by the five faculty specialists ranged from 42.5% to 62.5%. The system never failed to cover a treatable pathogen while demonstrating efficiency in minimizing the number of antimicrobials prescribed.
cdurth 2 days ago
Llamamoe a day ago
I have more sympathy for almost every other profession affected than doctors.
eqvinox a day ago
(Everything is way over capacity though. Can't recall a specific one but I do think there's a few "took too long, worse off due to that". But that's a scale & system-wide finance issue, not quality.)
nitwit005 2 days ago
If it's basically dumping details into ChatGPT, I'd wonder why the hospital would bother paying Microsoft. They can ask it to simulate a panel of physicians too.
FireBeyond 2 days ago
However, this is something an AI can be good at. And well, GIGO, be your provider human or AI. I can't act on things you don't tell me. Well, somewhat - if I'm looking at your lower legs and seeing severe edema, I might be skeptical of your claim that "other than what's going on today, perfectly healthy". So maybe we need realtime video too.
Relatedly, I was talking to my immigration attorney, who has been very good, on an area where immigration law intersects some other topics, and she was fairly obviously using AI on our video call to guide her on many areas she wasn't as familiar with.
harvey9 a day ago
ChrisArchitect 2 days ago
rooftopzen 2 days ago
viraptor a day ago
It won't notice that the patient's hand is trembling. It won't be aware of issues common in some areas. It won't notice that the patient always comes in with a partner and is nervous about some answers. Etc. It's amazing that it beats doctors on applying a turn-by-turn decision tree, but that's not what a typical visit looks like. (Yes yes, there are terrible doctors who don't care, that's besides the point here)
NotGMan 2 days ago
AI is great for this since it has encyclopedic knowledge.
keybrd-intrrpt 2 days ago
mcbuilder 2 days ago
tpmoney 2 days ago
I was talking to my own doctor and their experience with a new note taking / transcription AI app they've been using, having worked on medical software before. One of the problems I noticed when designing software then was that software likes its categorized fields, with data entered just the right way and in just the right order. But medical work is almost never that neat and tidy. Patients and other medical professionals give you information in whatever order things come to their mind in, or in whatever order their own system and paperwork displays it. A simple prescription consisting of a patient's name, DOB, medication, medication form, dispensing quantity, refills and dosing instructions might be given to a provider in any order of those fields and no matter what order your software chooses, it won't be the same order as someone else giving it to you. Most providers that used the software I worked on resorted to hand writing everything down and filling it all in later, or having to ask for repetition over and over as they clicked through various fields trying to remember everything before it flicked out of their short term memory or the other person moved on. And as more and more systems and regulations require everything to be entered into electronic records, this has become more of a problem. To the point where you go to some appointments and you often don't even see your doctor's face because they're stuck behind a terminal nodding along as they try to capture everything you say into the specific fields in the system. AI tooling has the potential (and at least from my own doctor's experience, is already showing that potential) to free up the mental effort spent on getting the right data into the right fields. AI can do a great job of understanding that a free text field that says:
Fucitol tab 25mg qid
John Smith 01/01/75
#30 3 months
and a free text field that says: Fucitol 25mg tablet
30 tabs, 4x per day
3 refills
Smith, John 1975-01-01
say the same things, and get those things into the right fields in the record for you. They still need to go back and check it (and see the previous caveat about "good enough" systems) but by freeing the doctor from the mental load of intentionally categorizing all of the data they're hearing while simultaneously trying to reason through what all that data means and enter it at the same time they have more mental room to actually pay attention to the things the patient is saying, the things they're doing and the things the doctor is seeing.And one thing I hope is that it makes switching doctors if you need to safer and more effective. The sheer volume of information a new patient can bring with them if they have all their medical records is massive and sorting through it all is likely something we'll never give our providers enough time and money to do. Things will get missed, or doctors will defer (consciously or not) to the diagnosis already listed, even if a more thorough review might reveal the diagnosis was wrong. An AI system designed to review an influx of data with an adversarial eye, or at least an eye towards looking for missed possibilities or potential reasons for the patient's dissatisfaction with the previous provider could go a long way towards helping end the sorts of "I went through 10 doctors all of which told me it was all in my head/I should try losing weight/I can't be experiencing this issue at my age, and then finally the last doctor had just finished reading a paper about how XYZ can cause these symptoms and now I'm finally getting treatment" stories anyone with friends or family with chronic health problems probably has heard more than once.
tejinderss 2 days ago
rightbyte 2 days ago
harvey9 a day ago
1shooner 2 days ago
viraptor a day ago
SJC_Hacker 2 days ago
AI might have similar reservations depending on standard of care
Shitty-kitty 2 days ago
eqvinox a day ago
…which actually makes sense. "The AI said so" might be a magic trick in that absolute hellscape of bad care and financial racketeering.
Shitty-kitty 19 hours ago
rendaw a day ago
ulfw a day ago
deadbabe 2 days ago
dasil003 2 days ago
The system is already broken, so turning over control to AI companies where no human ever sees the patient is a no brainer. There's no tradeoff to consider here, after all the our entire economy is riding on the success of AI, so any concern about human factors that can't be measured by economists is just a distraction from what really matters.
rowanG077 2 days ago
dieortin 2 days ago
> You are tying AI usage to bigAI and that is unfounded.
Tell me a single competitive AI model that hasn’t been created by a large AI company. I don’t care if weights are open or not.
rowanG077 a day ago
> so turning over control to AI companies where no human ever sees the patient is a no brainer
Using an open weight model turns no control over to an AI company, even if that model was created by some AI company.
silverFork 2 days ago
pmpmpmpm 2 days ago
silverFork 2 days ago
nso95 2 days ago
silverFork 2 days ago
SJC_Hacker 2 days ago
Not for surgery, at least not yet. The robotics isn’t quite good enough
silverFork 2 days ago
newyankee a day ago
eqvinox a day ago
There's no such thing. How a medical professional interacts with a patient is a major part of the profession. Some people are shy, some anxious, dismissive, neurotic, ashamed, obstinate, miseducated, … etc.
You need a ton of interpersonal skills in this, particularly at diagnosis time. I might even go as far as saying it matters more than medical book knowledge. If the patient is too shy to tell you about, say, black stuff in their stool, you may never get to apply that knowledge about colon cancer.
Coincidentally, a family member of mine died of basically that. When somebody asks, we half-jokingly say he died of stubbornness. It's actually the truth, kinda.
Doctors doing diagnosis are detectives putting together clues. Ideally, they have the patient's full cooperation and zero misunderstandings. Worst case, they're being unintentionally sabotaged, bridging world views, and hampered by their own prejudices.
seanmcdirmid 2 days ago
eqvinox a day ago
eqvinox a day ago
You already blew way past budget, and worse, availability, than most patients can afford. And you want to minimise unnecessary radiation exposure. Those things are ordered when you have indications they will help (with diagnosis or care), not as scattershot to get diagnostic data.
silverFork a day ago
Apparently there is going to be Multi-Cancer Early Detection Tests if they get FDA approval. Not accurate enough yet but probably better than nothing.
eqvinox a day ago
(I do think the radiation concerns are a bit excessive, but there's also the problem of false positives. A lot of people have some weird "deviations" that have no impact at all, but result in goose chases if something else goes wrong and they show up.)
silverFork 20 hours ago