Pentagon grants DHS permission to test heat ray weapon for use at border (cnn.com)

135 pointsby bushwart2 days ago147 comments

icegreentea2 2 days ago

The system in question is basically just a directed microwave emitter. It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

It's safety is basically completely a function of the operator. Since the beam will keep depositing energy (ie heating), if the beam is held on a target, it will incur more and more heating (and potentially harm).

In proper usage, safety is ensured through the combination of operator training, selection of proper settings, and induced compliance. If you have a shitty operator, risk of over exposure increases. The nature of this device means that it's not a barrier, it's a beam.

During earlier testing, they were able to induce second degree burns on a test subject due to incorrect power and duration settings.

pstuart 2 days ago

There's no way I'd trust this in the hands of anyone, especially those operating in the service of the current administration. They say they want to use it to "protect the border" but there are reports that they'd used it domestically already.

Considering the non-tolerance of public protest and the "promise" of non-lethality, I could imagine this becoming a regular tool in population control if things don't change.

danparsonson 2 days ago

...and one need only watch videos of "trained officers" hosing people with pepper spray to envision how that will turn out.

everdrive 2 days ago

Also try not to think about contact lenses, piercings, jewelry, pacemakers, etc.

busssard 2 days ago

i wonder what would happen if i am wearing a layer of aluminum foil under my shirt...

bijowo1676 2 days ago

put it into microwave, aluminum will spark and will burn like the thermite

infinite_spin 2 days ago

mom called and asked that you stop breaking the microwave

cowlevel 2 days ago

that depends on the shape and the intensity of the waves

8note 2 days ago

aluminum is pretty eactive though. some bronze chainmail?

scottyah 2 days ago

This must be a New World Order device because they can't get past my foil hat! Nice try, lizard people.

throw_away2 2 days ago

A layer of frozen burritos is probably your best defense.

footy 2 days ago

for certain types of tools (and I'd certainly class weapons as this type) you have to assume that a certain number of operators will be, as you put it, "shitty". Whether it's because they're having a bad day, are genuinely incompetent, are malicious, whatever the reason---some percentage of the operators will be using your tool in a way you'd discourage for PR reasons.

Maybe I am too cynical, but I don't think the people making these tools actually care about this either, not beyond the potential for bad publicity.

scottyah 2 days ago

There's also the escalation timeline. In a hypothetical situation where nonlethal force is being used, but there's a threat that requires more than a gentle "please don't" type of heating, I don't think we'd want it to be limited. Gentle crowd suppression is great till someone pulls out a gun or knife, and though it's debatable opinion and there are a lot of factors to consider, I think a few collateral 2nd degree burns beats switching to a rifle and opening fire into the crowd.

Zigurd 2 days ago

Take a look at the videos of police encounters posted online. The situation you're describing is highly theoretical. What actually happens is that you get pain compliance used to control talk back and disrespect of cop.

Will taking the tools of torture away from cops increase risks they face? Maybe. But have they earned our confidence that they will use these tools wisely? No, they haven't.

buellerbueller 2 days ago

Risk is part of the job profile. We keep trying to lower the risk, but do we lower the benefits accordingly? No.

hardbass 2 days ago

LEO will use it against anyone they wish to. Why do people want a group that already has special privileges to murder you scot-free to have more powers? Anyone sane would be working to equalize matters by either kicking cops down to the same laws as us or arming up to the level as cops and arguing for the same immunities to murdering cos.

ASalazarMX 2 days ago

Since the title is ambiguous, it matters to clarify that it will be deployed on the border with Mexico, which has a long history of abuse and even cold-blooded murder of non-threatening undocumented immigrants. This will be abused, it's only a matter of time.

dgellow 2 days ago

With the current administration I expect that’s what they are wishing for

Arainach 2 days ago

Your sentence is ambiguously phrased. Might I suggest "the border with Mexico, where US immigration officers have a long history of...."

ASalazarMX 2 days ago

Not only US immigration officers, even civilians have murdered undocumented immigrants crossing their property, not staying, crossing on their way out, and claimed self-defense because they felt their life threatened somehow.

Racism and disregard for basic human rights has a long history in that border. I'd even say it's part of a subculture. Some people leave water jugs for people crossing the desert, others are horrible people that enjoy inflicting pain on others.

Arainach 2 days ago

My point is that "the border with Mexico, which has a long history of abuse", with a particular emphasis on Mexico, makes it sound like you're stating that Mexico has a history of those things.

ASalazarMX 20 hours ago

I assumed it was clear in context, but that's probably a nuance that escapes me because my English is not native. Noted.

javcasas 2 days ago

Let's be honest. ICE has shown us that only the "shitty" operators will be hired in. Specifically the malicious ones, we cannot leave to chance spreading misery.

bijowo1676 2 days ago

knowing the kind of people who sign up for ICE/CBP enforcement, I have no hope that a trained or decent operator will be behind this machine.

I expect a lot of severely traumatized people from this device

10111001 2 days ago

> The system in question is basically just a directed microwave emitter. It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

So what happens when it's shot at someone's eyes?

icegreentea2 2 days ago

The innate blink reflex is supposed to be enough to limit risk of damage: https://web.archive.org/web/20130216134111/http://jnlwp.defe... (go to page 14/28).

euroderf 2 days ago

So if I can't keep my eyes closed (because of a riot situation, or friends in trouble) am I risking permanent eye damage, with no government responsibility for it, because some cop shouted something into a bullhorn that I couldn't make out ?

icegreentea2 2 days ago

Possibly yes.

The device works through line of sight, so blocking line of sight from the emitter to your open eyes (for example, by looking away and shielding with your arms) may be helpful.

Testing indicates that test subjects reached their pain threshold in ~5 seconds (typically reacting within 3). Proper application of this device in a riot situation likely involves pulsed application, at sufficient standoff range (between targets and a barrier or your riot police/troops), precisely to reduce the risk of operators feeling that they need to dwell, with the standoff range providing enough buffer to allow operators to feel like they can illuminate, wait for initial reaction, shut off, and then read the full reaction.

In your general scenario, you can replace this weapon with any other riot control tool, and get basically the same shitty situation. Once the government/police/whatever have decided that you are in a riot/mob, then you're not going to be treated as an individual, you're going to be treated as an element of a threat. This is true of dudes with shields and batons, beanbags, water cannons, tear gas, horses, whatever.

ssl-3 2 days ago

I have a thought from left field:

There's a perforated metal sheet inside the door of every consumer microwave oven that blocks microwave RF, and permits visible light to pass.

Remove it. Cut it up. Fit it into sunglass frames or goggles or whatever.

AlotOfReading 2 days ago

Higher frequencies need smaller holes to attenuate as effectively. You'd likely be better off with aluminum foil than the door.

ssl-3 2 days ago

> Higher frequencies need smaller holes to attenuate as effectively.

So let's make the holes smaller. We want to permit nanometer-wave light to pass while blocking centimeter-wave RF. I'm not seeing a particularly difficult engineering challenge here. :)

> You'd likely be better off with aluminum foil than the door.

Did you think this through at all? Running away and hiding while wearing opaque aluminum foil blinders is kind of a unilateral non-starter.

---

Anyway, we also have this: Window film. Let's look at an example.

3M Thinsulate Climate Control 75 is a self-adhesive film that blocks greater than 99% of RF from 100MHz to 4.5GHz[1], which I might suggest is pretty good for protecting the ol' eyeballs from a brief encounter with the blindness machine.

The combination of it and a single pane of window glass provides 74% visible light transmission[2]. I further suggest that this allows plenty of light with which to safely move around.

[1]: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1704860O/electromagnetic...

[2]: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1435912O/product-bulleti...

AlotOfReading 2 days ago

You might note that the active denial system is 95 GHz, not 4.5 GHz.

ssl-3 2 days ago

So you're suggesting what, exactly? That further testing is necessary?

Please be constructive instead of dismissive.

kooi 2 days ago

Wavelength = 1/f

ssl-3 2 days ago

Anyway: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335175027_Investiga...

Attenuation of 95 GHz seems likely to be in the realm of 30-40dB, which is also in the realm of letting less than 1% through.

realo 2 days ago

It is "non-lethal"!

Be happy you are just blind for the rest of your life.

Such a shitty government you have today in the USA, it boggles the mind.

jauntywundrkind 2 days ago

The Business Plot people who want to tear down the United States, the rebel faction trying to destroy democracy and the nation from within has really figured out how to keep driving fear and conspiracy into our hearts (the less mind the better). They're just such amazing aggitants, able to make people so willing and ready to throw this whole nation in the wood chipper.

I wish we could identify, grapple with how bad what a terror America has become against itself. Against its history. Against in so many cases reality. There doesn't seem to be any regulating functions in red America, anything other than ever increasing war drums against democracy, against union, again the constitution, the declaration of rights, reason, kindness, and possibility. To make itself the foe of the nation has been the only thing this political faction has been able to lead by, and we are so far past the unhinging, never to come back seemingly, never to be able to have any learning moments, never to recognize a loyal opposition again, never to compromise. Just shrill shrieking bedlam and din forever.

Vaushite 2 days ago

Apparently the recent ad showing the senator breaking into the girl's toilet to check her genitals was quite effective. There just aren't many of those ads.

scottyah 2 days ago

They grew up watching Batman breaking people's backs and giving severe concussions, but because he didn't kill he was Good.

eth0up 2 days ago

That and many other considerations. 1. is the system adjustable beyond the advertised wavelen. 2. Is the person able bodied, ie capable of retreating. 3. Is the person even aware of the context...

This is where things are moving, however. I do not think it is good.

We should be asking these questions.

pull_my_finger 2 days ago

> If you have a shitty operator, risk of over exposure increases.

Good thing border control isn't full of rejects and nonhackers from the military and real law enforcement \s

slowin 2 days ago

> It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

Oh, is that all?

> US officials had also considered deploying the system during moments of domestic unrest, including at the end of President Donald Trump’s first term when protests erupted over the murder of George Floyd, according to a former US official familiar with those discussions.

This is for "the border" (because you know we should be able to torture people there), but really this will imperial boomerang back to US citizens in the blink of an eye.

mindslight 2 days ago

The real question is why you would give a new weapon to the rioters, of course. Much of that "domestic unrest" was caused by police escalating situations (aka police riots), to both punish people for speaking out and also to use the spectacle of disorder to show how we need them.

cowlevel 2 days ago

The purpose of a system is what it does

srean 2 days ago

> If you have a shitty operator

Well, we are talking about US border patrol folks. Trust me, they are the nicest guys around /s.

2932o94ui 2 days ago

And that's exactly the problem. We (and users) have known for decades that you can kill someone with a rubber bullet. And they have been used to intentionally kill on many different occasions.

MengerSponge 2 days ago

Rubber bullets are supposed to be aimed at the ground, but we've seen (pun sadly intended) plenty of officers aiming at faces/eyes of protestors. This can kill, and if it doesn't kill it maims.

They're trained to not maim or kill. More training won't fix it. More money and more resources won't fix that systemic rot.

40%, after all.

Zigurd 2 days ago

Oh goody. Let's give cops another toy before we have tamed the use of pain compliance tools already in their hands. We are breeding a class of casual torturers.

outworlder 2 days ago

> In proper usage, safety is ensured through the combination of operator training, selection of proper settings, and induced compliance. If you have a shitty operator, risk of over exposure increases. The nature of this device means that it's not a barrier, it's a beam.

Yeah, that's going to go well with people aiming this at whoever they think it's "less than" them.

ridgeguy 2 days ago

This is a high power microwave emitter whose very high frequency (33GHz, IIRC - home µwave ovens are 2.45GHz) limits its energy deposition to a thin tissue layer. It's very effective, but big and cumbersome because of the high power requirements. At these frequencies, components are tiny. If one needed less than ten Watts, this could be a box the size of a desktop PC, maybe a shoebox.

I'm fairly sure this could be (is being?) scaled down to something resembling the pain box used on Paul Atreides in Dune. An efficient "enhanced interrogation" technology is just too tempting for too many in power.

(edit: omitted word)

eth0up 2 days ago

A while back, I'd been researching the general topic. Health problems fog my memory, but essentially I was trying to figure out how closely the proclaimed application/purpose actually fit the actual capabilities. I found, what seemed to me, evidence that the military systems are not hard limited to the specific advertised GHz/len spectrum, but can be adjusted for lethal purposes.

Possibly the "safeguard" portion of the first patent below indicates this; which may only make sense if such devices are capable of exceeding lawful spectrums, etc. Not sure though.

The others I just threw in. I am not in the right space to vet or read them right now, so they may or may not be relevant. That said, I did once interview a soldier who told me of some off-the-record use of directed energy in Iraq/Afghanistan... describing bodies with relatively intact exteriors with internal damage not fitting of thermobaric weapons, ie vehicles also intact. Terms used were "cooked from the inside". Anecdotal, but disturbing, and certainly physically possible.

1. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7921588B2/en

2. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20220082358A1/en

3. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7784390B1/en

4. https://www.patentbear.com/patents/US7490538B2

hoppyhoppy2 2 days ago

Microwaving people at the border stimulates the US defense manufacturing sector and ensures the livelihoods of microwave weapon operators. It could even prop up hospitals in rural border areas where the microwaved migrants get checked out.

Microwaving people is clearly a net good for society, and once domestic non-border use is approved we'll be able to build America back even more quickly.

javcasas 2 days ago

There is a broken window fallacy somewhere around there, but I cannot find it right now.

testing22321 a day ago

No idea what you’re talking about. The window on my microwave has never broken or complained of pain.

skoll43 2 days ago

I, for one, welcome the methods of our robot overlods

causesothere 2 days ago

This is a weapon that will be deployed primarily against their own citizens.

samudrijan 2 days ago

The “border” extends 100 miles in-land from the actual border and encompasses 2/3 of the US population. DHS needs to be dismantled stat.

nonethewiser 2 days ago

At the border?

thunderfork 2 days ago

Today, the border; tomorrow, hand-me-downs to every cop shop in the country

causesothere 2 days ago

My sweet summer child. You know how LRADs are deployed against US civilians? You know how chemical munitions are deployed against US civilians? (Specifically munitions that are considered illegal to deploy in war, but are apparently acceptable to deploy by police?) How flashbang grenades launched from handheld launchers are deployed against US civilians? How about the military personnel carriers and MRAPs?

You think those didn't start as restricted to some theater of war?

Go read up on the 1033 program. Or the DHS Grant Program, the Justice Assistance Grant program, or the 1122 program.

8note 2 days ago

> Specifically munitions that are considered illegal to deploy in war, but are apparently acceptable to deploy by police?

the reasoning for this is less exciting that you'd like. its illegal in war because war is anarchy, and ypu cant tell what chemical weapons an opponent is using, and so proportional response is the worst variation you can think of.

when theyre used by the cops, you know exactly what they are using, and there isnt a chemical weapon escalation worry

barbazoo 2 days ago

At the next protest against the government.

encoderer 2 days ago

The tin foil hatters get the last laugh

scottyah 2 days ago

Have you seen tin foil in a microwave? I think they'll be the first to stop laughing :(

Vaushite 2 days ago

If you make sure it's smooth without gaps it will reflect the waves like a mirror.

profdevloper 2 days ago

Let's hope so -- so tired of seeing cities burn to the ground

causesothere 2 days ago

I remember Portland. Sadly it burnt to the ground. No one lives there now, because there are no buildings.

Wait, I'm hearing reports. Reports that literally no city has been burnt to the ground due to protests? None at all? And this HN account is just out of touch?

gosub100 2 days ago

I saw something recently about stun cuffs or something like that. Basically an electric torture device, being commissioned for US prisons. It might have even been a chair. This stuff has to stop.

abdusco 2 days ago

Hurr durr Iran killing their own citizens

hypfer 2 days ago

This is exactly the kind of weapon system one would want if they were to deal with climate change in the most inhumane way possible.

Just ignoring climate change, then building a secure perimeter to keep away anyone fleeing from the consequences of it.

The "best" part of energy weapons like that is that they just need energy. Meaning that no one has to constantly restock ammunition. They can even run off renewables.

Making the whole thing scalable. Fully automated energy weapon sentry guns on the border to the global south.

This is going to be the future, isn't it? Jesus Christ.

gosub100 2 days ago

Easily repelled with knit wire though

lnsru 2 days ago

Don’t worry. Every third turret will shoot also non lethal rubber bullets to deal with knit wire holders.

8note 2 days ago

The US has a lot of places that will be heavily affected by climate change, and climate refugees will be travelling within and between states, just as much as across country borders

skoll43 2 days ago

Brother, so the ai bots will literally microwave us, what a time to be alive

First the border, I don't see why they would stop there with the tech

allthetime 2 days ago

The Gaza Testing Ground comes to the USA. Large scale protest and revolt will continue to become a less attractive option for frustrated Americans.

jpmattia 2 days ago

And suddenly, there was a market for body-sized Bragg reflectors in the microwave region.

igleria 2 days ago

Surely the border patrol will not use it to torture a trespasser?

helios_invictus 2 days ago

It's my understanding that this tool is for crowd control and area denial. While I can understand how this may useful along the border in fantasy, it appears to be literal atomic flyswatter to unreal problem.

b3ing 2 days ago

Problem is these evangelicals don’t see others as people, just wait for them to define what Christianity is

Undulating-Appa 2 days ago

How would this affect wildlife? could it potentially affect the ecosystem if there is a large deployment?

dmix 2 days ago

It only goes a half mile out at max range, it's not that far. So basically whatever is immediately in front of the truck.

ck2 2 days ago

just a hop step and jump to being used on (completely legal) protestors

there are already several recorded incidents of LRADs being used on crowds which do permanent damage but invisible so very handy for authoritarian governments

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmK-KZOiT-c

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device

shevy-java 2 days ago

> The heat ray, officially known as the Active Denial System, is a nonlethal weapon that shoots an invisible beam of electromagnetic waves that can reach a little more than half a mile away, according to the US military.

Stun gun and electro shocks are also advertised as non-lethal. But the name is wrong; it should be called less-lethal at best.

Zigurd 2 days ago

They are torture implements, sold to enthusiastic torturers, by people morally depraved enough to be in that business.

scottyah 2 days ago

Maybe, but do you have a better solution?

Zigurd 2 days ago

The problem is the overuse of torture devices against people who are unarmed and nonviolent. Torture devices are too convenient in contexts where speedy compliance is sufficient reason to inflict pain, absent a genuine threat. What problem were you thinking needs a solution?

scottyah 2 days ago

Oh in that case, just give the people whatever they want. I assumed the discussion was about the scenarios this tool was designed for, aka not "unarmed and nonviolent" people.

The problem I think needs a solution is a group of mostly good people being riled up with the well-studied herd mentality, laced with people doing bad things. You want to be able to stop the few bad people (without killing, obviously) with minimal disturbance to the good people, but at any time you cannot know who is good or bad (i.e. you can't enter the crowd to target specific people), and at any point the good people can turn and become malicious actors, contrary to how they'd behave in most circumstances.

Zigurd 2 days ago

Look at some videos of police encounters.The way they actually get used is as convenient torture devices.

scottyah 2 days ago

Okay, but how would you design a system that could address the scenario above without being used as a "convenient torture device"? You don't get to change human nature on either side.

Zigurd a day ago

No. There actually is no need to address your very hypothetical scenario before taking the Insta torture devices away from cops. If they are too under trained to use those tools wisely, they won't be able to use them effectively even in your tailor-made scenario.

Vaushite 2 days ago

Don't torture people?

8note 2 days ago

the better option is to stop arming gangs in central and south america, and accept that certain governments will have sovereignty and democracy outside of being a US vassal state.

the secondary better option is to move away from colonial ambitions where those same vassal states exist to give the US their resources, and must be controlled to doing so, into having their own economic prosperity.

half of this strategy has worked well with mexico already, such that a lot of the southern border immigration isnt mexicans anymore, after nafta destroyed the mexican farm industry and moved the corn to iowa

footy 2 days ago

what the actual fuck.

edit: okay, first reaction, obviously not contributing to any conversation. This is barbaric and if I paid US taxes I'd be writing my government.

cdrnsf 2 days ago

This administration only accepts adulation, not criticism.

sigspec 2 days ago

I write them constantly. I've tried calling, emailing, faxing, snail mail. I've only ever received a handful of generic form letter responses.

The lobby is louder.

Vaushite 2 days ago

The average congressman payoff is only about $10k. Anyone got that to spare?

alphawhisky 2 days ago

I've got something much more persuasive than $10k.

monkpit 2 days ago

If that worked, we wouldn’t have been in this situation in the first place.

hardbass 2 days ago

If it is writing and organizing to have the same rights as cops to shoot them without consequence, then yes. Otherwise it is of no use. Why do people accept being second class citizens where one group has the right to murder them without consequence?

LatteLazy 2 days ago

People really need to start reading Fahrenheit 451…

blooalien 2 days ago

> People really need to start reading Fahrenheit 451…

That and "1984" were required reading when I was in grade-school, supposedly as a warning against the worst possible future outcomes (not as instruction manuals for our "leaders" to follow).

rolph 2 days ago

not far away until we have the microwave helmet.

dreamcompiler 2 days ago

Look at this thing. Now tell me how long you think it would last under an assault of, say, three modern $50k military drones controlled by trained Ukrainian operators.

My guess: 35 seconds.

stuaxo 2 days ago

Sadistic

mrguyorama 2 days ago

This thing has actually been around for 20 years now, right?

"Future weapons" on the Discovery Channel showed it off back in 2007ish.

It's been in development hell that long because it just sucks in a million ways. Water cannons and other tools just do it's job better, and for less contract dollars.

And that's ignoring anything around microwaving your own citizens being fucked.

metalman 2 days ago

the actual problem is that the 'pentagon' has zero authority to grant some jumped upp 3 letter agency the go ahead to test what is basicly an electronic flame thrower on civilian refugees, you know ,scared, hungry, tired, women carrying infants with absolutly no idea what is happening to them, and this by an organisation with a solid record of publicly executing american citizens and walking away saying 'fucking bitch' put the pieces on one page and it looks full on gestapo high tech kill squad times.

ionetan 2 days ago

I read DHH, and started wondering if he is ok :D

Computer0 2 days ago

I think the nazi's used gas

alphawhisky 2 days ago

Wasn't there a relatively high-profile case of a journalist dying of "nothing" after whistleblowing recently? I only remember that a directed energy weapon was one of the proposed methods of their assasination.

gus_massa 2 days ago

It's not magic, this will make burn marks before it can kill someone.

alphawhisky 2 days ago

Sonic weapons can cause damage to tissue without being visible on the skin. It's science, not magic.