Show HN: We had AI write a wiki from 45k Enron emails, every fact cited (thisandthat.chat)
xbar 2 days ago
jreynar 2 days ago
enjoyyourlife 2 days ago
peter_d_sherman 11 hours ago
It's not so much related to Enron or what a historic corporation did right or what a historic corporation did wrong, although those aspects are interesting too...
What's interesting is the use of an AI, an LLM, to create a "knowledge map" (in this case a Wiki, but it could have taken other forms) of a whole bunch of disjoint, separate, and apparently (at first glance, to the naked eye of a casual observer) disparate information from different emails at different dates and times to different parties outside of the company, the only common thread being that they were sent by employees of the same company, and for the AI/LLM to be able to extract facts and a knowledge graph ("who knew what, when") again, in the form of a Wiki (but could have been in another format), and this allows "making sense of", some "higher level viewpoint of" (at least to some better degree than all of the emails alone), again, in this case, in the form of a Wiki.
Now, this set of ideas could have some application far beyond Enron, far beyond investigations, far beyond what Enron historically did right or Enron historically did wrong...
For example, large companies and other organizations could create Wikis based on public facts in email corpuses for onboarding new employees. Not just for email interactions with outside companies (customers, suppliers, etc.) but for how different systems, different business processes used by the company work, or are supposed to work. Sort of like new employee manuals where there are entries like "if this fails, then do this...", or here's our documentation which shows that we're ISO-9000 compliant, etc. etc.
Point is, the amount of uses for something like this in a corporate setting is theoretically unlimited.
Of course, there might be issues as to what information different types of employees could read about, that is, larger corporations may wish to set access controls to different types of information, but there's no reason why an AI/LLM couldn't perform this function (with human oversight!) as well. Each of those could be ironed-out on an per-company, per-case, ad-hoc basis...
But again, the point is, the amount of potential uses for something like this in a corporate setting is theoretically unlimited...
Anyway, great article, and great idea!
genxy 2 days ago
anotherhue 2 days ago
Razengan 2 days ago
cwnyth 2 days ago
pixl97 2 days ago
Unless we get some kind of verified human authentication it's nearly impossible to solve. And that in itself introduces all kinds of new problems.
Welcome to the dead internet.
irishcoffee 2 days ago
pixl97 2 days ago
Well, the future sucks for your children.
Also, thank goodness I made thousands of HN accounts to sell to LLMs.
No, this really just shifts the shape of the problem around, but the problem is still the same size.
irishcoffee 2 days ago
anonymous908213 2 days ago
pixl97 2 days ago
At best we get this
chung8123 2 days ago
jetbalsa 2 days ago
qclibre22 2 days ago
pretty cool.
jreynar 2 days ago
Kwpolska 2 days ago
happyash1 2 days ago
tonymet 2 days ago
contubernio 2 days ago
nonethewiser 2 days ago
Capricorn2481 2 days ago
tonymet 2 days ago
Kim_Bruning 2 days ago
jreynar 2 days ago
deaux 2 days ago
2002, Arthur Andersen gets indicted for deliberately aiding Enron in cooking the books. 2003, Bush DoJ's attorney general binds prosecutors to effectively always settle corporate cases without convictions. So nowadays you have companies like Boeing murdering 300+ without real consequences. It's a real shame.
scottrogers86 2 days ago
jonathanlb 2 days ago
The difference here is that they defrauded the investor class.
stymaar 2 days ago
Too nice of a way to talk about the Epstein class.
scottrogers86 2 days ago
59percentmore 2 days ago
1-more 2 days ago
deaux a day ago
If Arthur Andersen hadn't been indicted, it's possible it would have continued as a company and gotten away with it, at the very least much more likely than the above three.
1-more 2 days ago
Well, not one guy. Lou Pai cheated on his wife with stripper Melanie Fewell who was also married. He was known in the Enron offices to enjoy Houston area strip clubs. But in a first for him, he knocked Melanie up over the course of the affair. Pai's first wife and mother of his first two children Lana Lee learned about it and started divorce proceedings. To satisfy asset division as part of their divorce terms, Pai sold $250M worth of Enron stock just months before it crashed and Enron went bankrupt. Pai then married Fewell. Pai was briefly the largest(? maybe top two?) private land owners in Colorado, and his ranchland included Culebra Peak, one of CO's 14ers.
In 2008 he settled a civil suit alleging insider trading brought by the SEC. The settlement was $31.5 and does not include an admission of the SEC's claims. He was barred from serving as an officer or director of a public company for 5 years.
Lou landed on his feet. He and Melanie are still married. They and their daughter seem to be big figures in dressage, running Canaan Ranch and the Bred in the USA Syndicate, which seems to be a syndicate of 14 breeders. Maybe someone who knows horses can explain exactly how big a deal they are; they might not be much after all.
https://www.usef.org/us-equestrian-teams/athletes/natalie_pa...
yieldcrv 2 days ago
SEC only went after him because the movie came out
I think our current commissioner was working at the SEC at that time, I wonder what he thinks of it
1-more 2 days ago
yieldcrv 2 days ago
The utility of his prior lifestyle had diminished, he didn't need a dual income household and he certainly didn't want it.
He was bored of it, the university pipeline straight to running a corporate VC arm full of corporate climbers that want to prove how they fit in male dominated spaces with masculine behaviors. The representation of that was and is completely contrived - for any guy with options - and he went along with it because people told him to in the DC area, and that's who his peers were. Assortative mating that he realized was not serving him and he wasn't poor enough to need it.
I wouldn't say the conception was planned, he was just having fun with his favorite stripper, but pouring gas on himself at the gas station to mask her sent was.
Now, he retired his whole bloodline, after making a bloodline at all with his favorite stripper, giving her the dream of ponies, horses, and seemingly living happily ever after. I never followed up on his daughter being an adult now, but the privilege of pursuing dressage because of the father's successful indiscretions is fascinating.
I'll definitely aim to replicate, it looks far more appealing than upper middle class assortative mating does, with all the failure modes reappropriated as exception handling. I'll just avoid the first marriage, and refine the journey with trusts more effectively in such a wild wealth disparity and power dynamic, but also keep the divorce court ordered insider trading immunity in my back pocket.
jhbadger 2 days ago
59percentmore 2 days ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/10ir695/nomura_...
Yes, yes, I know, ctrl-f Credit Suisse and pretend it's 2005 and some crank with a tin foil ball cap is telling you about the NSA's wiretap program (with 2020 hindsight). No one ever talks about the 2019 bailouts.
SoftTalker 2 days ago
I'm not sure that's a bad idea. You can't put a corporation in jail, but you can get their money and that also requires a lower standard of proof than a criminal conviction. In theory I could see it as a better way to recover restitution for those who suffered losses.
officeplant 2 days ago
I don't see why we can't just put an entire board of a company in jail. Might inspire them to do better.
opo 2 days ago
https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2004/July/04_dag_495....
FLeXMurphy 2 days ago
g8oz 21 hours ago
jreynar 2 days ago
Enron's mail is an obvious test because it's public, so anyone can check the pages against the messages and the history. We used 45,047 emails from eight mailboxes. Every fact quotes the sentence it came from, and a fact expires on the date the mail shows it stopped being true.
The hardest part was that the model already knows Enron. It kept adding details from the public record that the email didn't contain. The methodology page shows how we caught those, what it still gets wrong and what it cost: about $11,000 at list prices (though we used a subscription), with no attempt to bring that down.
Happy to answer questions.
radlad 2 days ago
Vaushite 2 days ago
jreynar 2 days ago
BalinKing 2 days ago
number6 2 days ago
fwip 2 days ago
grey-area 2 days ago
One of the biggest problems about LLMs as machines for analysis is that they don't respect the boundaries of a problem and instead generate base on their corpus and training as well as the actual dataset in question in the context.
It would be wonderful if we could easily strip out facts about Enron somehow from a model or just instruct it to ignore anything outside the dataset (and have the instruction respected), it is quite frustrating that these machines are so fuzzy.
I had a look at the methodology page, well done for doing the hard work of going over the results a few times to find errors/inconsistencies. There are not too many inconsistencies according to that.
Of 62,205 candidate facts, 37 quoted a sentence we couldn't find in the message
https://www.thisandthat.chat/enron/methodology.html
The difficulty for a business considering using this (in law for example or analysing internal business documents), is that one incorrect fact could be very damaging and it's very hard to check them all.
jreynar 2 days ago
jollyllama 2 days ago