What shall I teach my son? (stevekrouse.com)

169 pointsby Curiositry5 hours ago246 comments

PeterWhittaker 2 hours ago

If lifestyles support it, and parents are so inclined, I'd worry less about teaching the first few years and more about reading to them and with them, esp. with some silliness and improvisation, hiking, camping, and shopping as a family, especially at local markets.

Spend meaningful, loving time together, and out in the world, as much of the small scale natural world as you can. Listen to their questions, answer when you can, learn the answers together when you can't.

If they are accustomed to hiking and camping, especially wild camping, they will learn much from you and will ask for more.

If you shop together at markets, they will start to develop a more complete relationship with their food supply and with the people working it.

Empathy and kindness and resilience will develop in those experiences.

Later, when they are closer to school age, be as honest with them as you can about the different personalities they will encounter, the conformist teachers and students, the rebels, the do gooders, the no goods, etc., and comfort them that their people may be there right away or may not be there for decades.

awesome_dude an hour ago

> Spend meaningful, loving time together, and out in the world, as much of the small scale natural world as you can. Listen to their questions, answer when you can, learn the answers together when you can't.

Learn to tell them that you don't have all the answers, and there's a chance that the pair of you can work together to find it out, but there will always be some things that nobody knows yet.

But, most of all, I cam here to say - the foundation you're suggesting building is the strongest one we know of - safety in their emotions, having someone they can talk to, share their feelings with without ridicule or fear.

Start there and children always have someone they can talk to

sivanmz an hour ago

Some kids love learning at an early age. If not, it’s easy to find out. Don’t worry about teaching too soon.

fxwin an hour ago

> My economically valuable skillset – programming – suddenly feels less valuable. What shall I teach my son?

Maybe that's just me, but this strikes me as a bit odd. When i think about my parents and what i appreciate about them and how they raised me, hard skills are not very high up the list. Things like encouraging curiosity, agency and freedom to pursue things that I showed interest in even if it meant spending many weekends and many eurodollars on me that they would no doubt have found ways to spend otherwise come to mind first, along with general values about society and how (not) to treat people.

Edit: there are "hard skills" they taught me, but they are more along the lines of "we want you to be a self sufficient human being capable of dealing with life" (cooking, cleaning, how to budget and think about money,...) and less about increasing my value as a participant in the labor market

10111001 an hour ago

>> My economically valuable skillset – programming – suddenly feels less valuable. What shall I teach my son?

> Maybe that's just me, but this strikes me as a bit odd. When i think about my parents and what i appreciate about them and how they raised me, hard skills are not very high up the list.

For better or worse, parents with lucrative professions have been able to give their kids a leg up to enter those professions. They know the path to get there, have connections, etc. That's especially important in increasingly competitive environments (like we have today).

Thinking you had such an asset to offer your kid, then being forced to doubt its value, is a loss.

fxwin an hour ago

that's fair, i haven't thought about it that way.

dlisboa 42 minutes ago

That's only for an extremely small set of professions, for most people their parent's professions were not lucrative by the time they grew up.

My dad was in a lucrative and booming industry: the printing press during the digital transformation. By the time I got to college it was a dying industry. I was in a lucrative and booming industry: programming during the 2000s. By the time my son is in college it might be dying too.

What you're talking about is mostly about timeless industries like health care, some types of engineering, finance, etc.

nostrademons 27 minutes ago

Medicine and finance have both reinvented themselves within the last generation. The skillset of a top practitioner now looks very different from the top practitioners in the 80s.

I think what you mean by a "timeless industry" is one that defines itself by the problem it's solving rather than by the solution. Tech and the Internet was so powerful that for a brief couple decades, the industry defined itself by the solution: just use computers. But really, AirBnB is in the hospitality industry, and Uber/Lyft/Waymo are in the transportation industry, and Zillow/Redfin/Trulia are in the real estate industry, and Stripe/Square/Paypal/Zelle/Plaid are in the payments industry, and Flexport is in the shipping industry, and so on.

The depressing part for me, who went into one of the consumer tech giants, is that I thought I was going into the tech industry and it turns out I'm really in the addiction industry. I now know a lot about how to deliver hits of dopamine at scale that bump up daily engagement, but that's not really what I thought I was going into, and the actual technology I use has completely shifted underneath.

antonymoose an hour ago

I hate to be “that guy” - but I truly believe there is a degree of so-called privilege in that perspective.

Not that I don’t value or agree with it, those soft skills are incredibly important, but one can I hope have both the soft and the hard skills.

Family and romance have evolved quite a bit in recent years - but all things equal are you wanting to marry into a family with productive skills, assets, etc? Would you pick true love with the peasant girl or marry to strengthen the alliance with Normandy? Would your answre to the latter change if you were the pauper?

fxwin an hour ago

I don't doubt my comment comes from a place of privilege, but the OP seems like there is some privilege there too so maybe in a way, that makes it an even better fit ;)

I also think both hard and soft skills are important, it just feels to me that a parent's job is primarily the latter, not the former. There are plenty of places that can teach your child very well how to become a programmer/electrician/younameit, but not many places that you trust to teach your child how to be a good human (amplified by the fact that a lot of social conditioning happens and is engrained before we really go super deep down the "tech tree" of hard skills in life)

dlisboa an hour ago

But all things aren't equal. Love is not a formula to see how one can improve their social status.

There are people who see it that way, who marry for money and clout. We call them the unhappy ones.

mitthrowaway2 32 minutes ago

Speaking for myself, although I never expected that I'd pass on hard skills to my child (unless they showed a particular interest), at least up until 2019 I felt confident that I could guide them in a general direction to be successful in life. How to do well in school, how to develop a work ethic, how to learn and pursue the things that interest them, how to approach planning a career, how to market their skills, how to manage risk, how to balance doing what they love vs what pays the bills, how to approach relationships... things like that. Regardless of whether they wanted to become a piano tuner or a park ranger or an astronaut or a homemaker.

But right now I know almost nothing at all for what to tell them. I don't know if any moticum of the experience I have that put me on a successful path will be valuable in the future at all.

Basically my plan is to just spend time enjoying time together and having fun, and cross my fingers and hope that things turn out alright.

dijit 4 hours ago

My mum was a mechanic, my dad was a mechanic/truck driver.

My grandfather and uncle were mechanics...

I am not, in fact my understanding of mechanics is extremely basic.

If I go back into my family tree, I can find three generations of Sugar House Labourers in Scotland in the early 1800s.. a profession that no longer exists in the UK as far as I can tell, and I'm certain they had a specialisation.

We'll be fine, your children aren't you, they'll find their own passions.

Our jobs as parents is to teach values and make sure they're good people and have the tools to make good decisions too, not to set them on a particular path... that's a losing goal, we can't tell the future for the next year- how could we possibly predict what works well 20 years from now?

louthy 4 hours ago

> My mum was a mechanic, my dad was a mechanic/truck driver. My grandfather and uncle were mechanics...

Mona Lisa Vito, is that you?

stackghost 4 hours ago

Can't make that comment without Positraction.

abirch 4 hours ago

I think her husband was a lawyer... but the utes will be alright.

jacquesm 4 hours ago

Future husband...

chickensong 4 hours ago

> how could we possibly predict what works well 20 years from now?

Being proficient in reading, at least one instrument, and one additional language is always welcome, regardless of the timeline.

scottLobster 4 hours ago

Not many people get paid for musical or linguistic talents, actually.

"Passion" is a luxury. We all have to choose from what the market demands.

sailfast 4 hours ago

If you can read and have any sort of curiosity (or you help teach curiosity) it’s a pretty solid foundation to learn just about anything.

The music bit is mostly things you’d want to impart on your kids if you care about that sort of thing. (Which I do!) The public versions of it are not great where I am but individually you can do a lot.

chickensong 3 hours ago

There is more to life than earning money, and not all skills need to be in service of that.

Regardless, both of those talents have the potential to open doors and set the stage for opportunity, nor are they mutually exclusive to whatever economic skills might be viable in the future.

scottLobster 3 hours ago

If you have rent or a mortgage, there is little more important than paying it. Everything else comes after. Everyone alive in the developed world today grew up in a wondrous period of history where the middle class had many luxuries previously only afforded to those with inherited wealth. There are signs that period is ending.

I'm not against things like learning to play an instrument, but if you're going to major in Music Theory, you better have a solid plan for a career on the other end. It can be a risky plan, but it has to be real with non-zero odds of success. It can't be just because you love playing the violin.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

That’s called strawmanning.

guitarlimeo 2 hours ago

Music can do so much more than just paying rent. You can impress your future wife with your playing or singing. It's a form of therapy for many.

It's true it won't pay the bills, but knowing one instrument is a good skill that differentiates you from others.

hnlmorg an hour ago

How are you going to impress your future wife with music skills if you can’t afford an instrument to play?

Or are you suggesting one should also prioritise buying a guitar over paying rent too?

0c3ca83 2 hours ago

The traditional career for people studying music theory is acquiring wealthy parents.

chickensong 2 hours ago

I'm not suggesting a career. I'm saying those three things are always valuable to learn.

criddell 2 hours ago

Somehow they read "learning a musical instrument" as "majoring in music".

myersj 2 hours ago

Your college major doesn't determine your career path, and the sooner people stop pretending that they are necessarily correlated, the better.

method_capital 2 hours ago

> "Everyone alive in the developed world today grew up in a wondrous period of history where the middle class had many luxuries previously only afforded to those with inherited wealth. There are signs that period is ending."

People have been freaking out about this pending doom for as long as we've walked the earth. Most of it stems from either old age or political hyperventilating (both symptoms of perceived displacement). Humanity's still grinding forward ... faster than ever.

hnlmorg an hour ago

Try telling that to the 20-somethings who already cannot afford to get on the property ladder and are being told AI will replace what few skilled white collar roles were available to them.

Times already have changed. It’s not people freaking out about a theoretical scenario. It’s already happened for those entering the job market today.

sevenzero 2 hours ago

Reading is a life skill. Proficiency in it makes you understand things. Weren't there plenty of news articles this year about how high schoolers didn't have proficient reading capabilities? Maybe teaching your kids how to properly read a text is a good thing.

0c3ca83 2 hours ago

"Hey, Muse, read me this article". Voila, your kids know how to read. Deciphering marks on paper can be as obsolete as lightning a fire without matches, with the advent of technology.

samudrijan 2 hours ago

What a zero-brain statement.

kdtsh an hour ago

‘Hey, Claude, make me a painting of a sunset.’ Voila, you know how to make art. ‘Hey, Chat, write me a sonnet.’ Voila, you know how to write poetry. But you don’t really though, don’t you. Text-to-speech didn’t come into existence with the advent of agentic AI, and yet you will have a hard time getting any job or being part of most communities if you are illiterate. It turns out technology did not make literacy obsolete. In any case, we already know that putting screens in front of children is harmful, so unless someone advocates harming children, using a modern computing device (touchscreen slate, keyboard and mouse, etc) as a replacement for basic education is highly suspect.

Kirth an hour ago

As much as they'd know how to bake bread by buying a loaf in the shops.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

There won’t be a labor market any more, unless there’s some technological barrier for AIs and robots that has not appeared yet.

It’s either some form of socialism or mass starvation.

baal80spam 2 hours ago

> socialism or mass starvation

From what history shows, there's not much difference between the two.

nradov 2 hours ago

Most of the major mass starvation events in modern history were caused by some form of socialism.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago

Lmao. This comment combined with the one above are just a microcosm of the worst HN has to offer.

What sort of socialism was at play when the British forced Ireland into famine during the potato blight? What about the British role in India’s famine? What about the many famines brought about by civil wars and ethnic conflicts in Africa? The Great Depression, famously brought about by socialist policies and definitely not gilded age wealth inequality decadence?

If you’re looking for a common thread, it’s authoritarianism, not socialism.

myersj 2 hours ago

Well that's certainly engaging with the meat of his comment, instead of the HN equivalent spamming stupid X clapbacks for likes. Bravo.

I guess you needed some validation today.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

I don’t disagree, but I’m not seeing many other options here.

Modern Western European socialism has probably suppressed wages and increased unemployment relative to the US, but hasn’t led to starvation.

criddell 2 hours ago

Maybe it comes down to whether you advocate for live-to-work or work-to-live.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago

> Not many people get paid for musical or linguistic talents, actually.

And yet the highest earning people I know who didn’t come from affluent backgrounds are musically and linguistically talented.

Focusing on what the market demands is chasing a moving target and if you miss the boat you might just end up a low-level peon holding a wrench.

Xirdus 2 hours ago

"Highest earning people who didn't come from affluent backgrounds" is entirely consistent with "not many people".

dotancohen 2 hours ago

None of the wealthy people I know had wealthy parents. Most of them had parents who didn't even have shoes for significant periods of time.

bombcar 2 hours ago

Music and linguistics have often been considered amongst the "liberal arts" - none of which are arguably "useful" but all of which are terribly worthwhile.

toast0 2 hours ago

Proficiency in reading and writing is clearly useful.

Proficiency in musical instrumemts is not necessarily useful by itself, but it's a path towards mastery of something hard that typically involves a lot of intentional practice. Having been able to master something hard once makes it easier to master other hard things, because you can reuse the learning skills. Music has a little bit of applied fractions and what not, too.

The same thing learning to learn journey happens with learning a second language. But also, learning a second language helps develop skills and understanding of your first language, and helps develop communication skills for situations where there's a limited mutual understandable vocabulary.

Some languages have market value too. Better communication with employers, customers, and suppliers is valuable.

samudrijan 2 hours ago

Self-expression is a fundamental human need. Ignore to your own detriment.

tzs 33 minutes ago

People should prepare their kids to be happy adults, not just employed adults.

I recall reading of studies that found that a significant majority of adults who did not learn to play an instrument when they were young wish that they had.

Only a small minority of adults who did learn to play an instrument when young wish that they hadn't.

LtWorf 27 minutes ago

> "Passion" is a luxury. We all have to choose from what the market demands.

See it that way, having a normal social life requires other skills than your job.

scottLobster 4 hours ago

I dunno, my parents were correct about my STEM education that was basically shoved up my ass as soon as I showed any science/engineering aptitude.

I'd say giving them the tools to make good decisions will naturally lead them to a particular path, why not push that path as well?

cyanmagenta 4 hours ago

It’s easier to say that when your parents were right. But there are a lot of parents who pushed their now-graduating children into fields that AI has recently eaten. And before that, parents who pushed their kids into fields they hated and ended up burning out.

That said, I am probably going to do with my kids exactly what your parents did and just hope I’m not wrong about their economic future and passions. But man, it’s a tough strategy call.

dijit 4 hours ago

and my mum dissuaded me from computers pretty strongly due to the negative stereotypes at the time, and its hindsight that tells us that I got lucky with my passion.

My mum did emphasise my reading though, and that went well.

its a lottery.

blauditore 4 hours ago

Regardless of making big money later or not, I find it horrible to push your kids in a direction simply because of that. They might be better off with less income but liking their job. Or like their job, become very good, and make a lot of money anyway because of that.

But maybe that's because I grew up in a place where you can make a decent living in a wide variety of jobs. Or because almost nobody in my (childhood) vicinity ever had a STEM, or even any white collar job.

scottLobster 3 hours ago

That's the issue, seems like the amount of jobs that produce a decent living are fewer and further between. Particularly if you want your own house and a family.

Could be a temporary fluctuation, or it could be that we're mean-reverting to the historical average of an ownership class and an underclass, where only the ownership class has the freedom to pursue their passions with any security. That would be sad, but I'm prepping my family for the latter.

vanviegen 2 hours ago

> That would be sad, but I'm prepping my family for the latter.

How, if I may ask?

jimbokun 2 hours ago

One can downshift into a lower income more enjoyable job, but one cannot up shift into a higher income job without the required education.

Besides for many people the higher income job is more enjoyable, especially when the lower income job takes a large physical toll.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

While it is becoming harder, if you have the right affinity you can certainly still up shift without formal education in IT and related fields.

0c3ca83 2 hours ago

Education and intellectual work isn't really worth anything if AI succeeds, so keep in mind that anything you're teaching is a hedge against AI stalling or collapsing.

We're moving more slowly on physical robotics in varied environments, so it's going to take a while before we automate reaching under the sink and turning a knob. Or maybe your kids will have a bright future in janitorial work, who knows?

ChaseRensberger 2 hours ago

> Education and intellectual work isn't really worth anything if AI succeeds

I feel like this is a crazy take. Smart (and motivated) people are better at adapting to a different world than not smart people.

0c3ca83 an hour ago

If we have working AI, I'll be able to ask it what I should do to adapt.

ChaseRensberger 41 minutes ago

i think this is a bit naive unless youre letting a neural interface run opus 12.6 and shutting down the rest of your brain to redirect energy towards local compute.

smart people are better at taking action based on directive than not smart people (im assuming).

0c3ca83 38 minutes ago

Yes, a little bit of intelligence would be necessary to follow directions, but not much education. We were discussing education.

tarpitt 2 hours ago

By the time they reach adulthood this aspect of robotics will be solved. I give it about 5 years.

Panton_123 40 minutes ago

But if AI “succeeds” then everyone that used to hold a job that has now been replaced would flood the blue collar market. I am not so sure that is such a bright future either.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

OK, sure.

Now what does that look like concretely? Still sending them to school for several hours a day, 5 days a week? Doing what during those hours?

unreal37 2 hours ago

School is half about babysitting while the parents work. So... yes. Kids will still have to go somewhere during the day. Might as well be a school.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

So we stop even pretending to teach them anything.

1-more 2 hours ago

> We'll be fine, your children aren't you, they'll find their own passions.

There's an Unschooling group on Facebook I watch. If you search "calculus" you get threads where a parent asks how their kid is going to learn calculus and the answers are mostly "when did you need calculus after high school." Aside from needing it for college, my answer would be "why am I raising my kid to be a 1:1 clone of me and not someone with a lot of different options." So I dig this as an answer. The world has ended a billion times already. People who work hard pursuing a skilled passion have never been obsolete.

tarpitt 2 hours ago

i mean even basic differentiation is useful for optimization problems.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago

Not to mention physics, which is useful for understanding why things are the way they are. Which, is an important skill lest you fall into anti intellectual traps like flat earthism.

Calculus is a shared language in the grand universal ocean of intellectual cultural. Rejecting calculus is rejecting part of that culture…

1-more 2 hours ago

Yeah, for me the real click was in AP Physics where we derived an equation for some motion property rather than just being handed the formula as I had been in, say, 8th grade science. The meta lesson is that you can use math to get more information out of a model than you think you have, which, yeah, keeps you from becoming a 5G get the facts style individual.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

I’m not sure there’s enough overlap between physics and calculus to justify calculus. That might mean you can’t derive physical equations yourself, but no one needs that who isn’t becoming a physicist.

Animats an hour ago

> I’m not sure there’s enough overlap between physics and calculus to justify calculus.

You need calculus to design a windmill or an auto engine or an electric motor beyond the "just sort of works" level. Most of analog electrical engineering is defined by calculus. Althogh, yes, you can get LTSPICE to do most of that for you.

ndriscoll an hour ago

F=ma is slightly important for physics, no? And deriving the equations is kind of the point; it's the understanding of "why" something is true.

e.g. I can tell you things act like a spring near (stable) equilibrium, and you can believe me, but why on Earth would that be true? Well, Taylor expand the potential at equilibrium. Define V(0)=0, and equilibrium means V'(0)=0, so V(x) ~ V''(0)/2 x^2, so F = -dV/dx = -V''(0)x, which is a spring with spring constant k=V''(0).

That's all a very conceptual explanation; the point is near an equilibrium, zoom in and you have a parabolic potential! What is the potential for a spring? A parabola! This is basic Calc BC stuff, but it also justifies why we might care about about simple harmonic motion. Calculus is the whole business of "zooming in."

1-more 2 hours ago

I think their answer would be "why would I care how long it takes this ladder to slide down the wall?" Which STINKS don't get me wrong. This is not a group I take seriously.

xattt 2 hours ago

The one-dimensional mentality of anti-intellectualism is absurd. I have heard parents outside of our school but in my community talk down French Immersion programs (versus English schooling) saying that people put their children in for the wrong reasons. I don’t know what the explicit reasons were in this case, but I am assuming that the other parent means academic overachievement.

Learning calculus or French can be beneficial, especially when the glass ceiling in certain workplaces is whether or not you’re bilingual. However, the point that’s getting missed is the metaexperience that consciously or subconsciously shapes the way the child interacts with the world later on.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

Somehow I feel like the workplaces with a glass ceiling over bilingual is so small as to be immaterial.

Animats an hour ago

Calculus is entry level math for all the hard sciences, engineering, and finance. It's how to think about how things change over time. Understanding what integrals and derivatives look like, especially as graphs, is very practical knowledge. Being able to think about compound interest and acceleration under gravity as driven by the same rules gives an understanding of what's happening underneath.

Whether the infinite-series summation limits are worth knowing is questionable, though. That's more of historical interest.

(But then, I once did a game physics engine and have a patent in that area. I spent a lot of time in the hell which is integration of stiff systems of nonlinear differential equations. Turned out that was the wrong way to approach the problem. Works, but there are better approaches.)

necovek an hour ago

> Whether the infinite-series summation limits are worth knowing is questionable, though. That's more of historical interest.

A very common example is compound, continual interest accumulation. As a mathematician, I had trouble understanding how banks calculate it (as they would obviously not point me at the derivation of the formula), but it's actually a limit sum over infinitely small interest terms.

Similarly, these techniques work to explain and derive numerical methods for calculating many natural constants like e, pi etc.

1-more an hour ago

The only intuitive definition of e I can remember is "how much $1 becomes after a year in a savings account with 100% interest compounded infinitely" funny enough.

1-more an hour ago

Right? Just because my professional career never took me in those directions doesn't mean I want to foreclose them for my kid! I did do electrical engineering classes in college wherein I needed calculus, I just never took a derivative/integral after graduation because I ended up on the coding side of a Computer Engineering degree.

solyin 2 hours ago

But give a boy until the age of 7 and he's ours for life, is what that old order of the monks said about values. What do you do for the remaining 11 years?

zelphirkalt 2 hours ago

Yeah, but that doesn't mean, that parents can't give their children a head start by teaching them stuff, that will smarten them up or help them understand stuff at school.

I remember my father taught me how to divide numbers and somewhat how to multiply them, before we learned that at school, with his own explanations. For multiplication he taught me indirectly, by making "number tables" with me:

    . | 1 | 2 | 3 | ...
    -------------------
    1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | ... 
    2 | 2 | 4 | 6 | ... 
    3 | 3 | 6 | 9 | ...
    ..|...|...|...| ... 
Up to 20. I used to bring them to school and teachers were discouraging, not realizing, what a great thing this was and what kind of insight it could allow a child to have into basic operations.

For division, he often said: "How often does one number fit into the other?" as a way of explaining that operation.

Ah and he also taught me about negative numbers, when other kids at school didn't even understand what that was supposed to be, and teachers still wanted us to write "not solvable", instead of the correct answer, which were negative numbers. How silly.

When the time came and we learned about division and fractions, I had an easy time to understand what the teacher explained, due to knowing an intuition about what division actually means. The hardest thing for me was not dividing numbers, but following that methodical procedure to divide in the written form, digit by digit. Something I had done in my head already, when thinking about that some number "fits into another number" only half, ergo must be 0.5 added to the number of times it fits in there whole. Only that I didn't realize immediately, that this written way of dividing 2 numbers was the same thing actually.

In this way parents can make school life and learning soooo much easier and less painful for their kids. Granted, I did seem to have a gift for calculation in primary school, but what was so casually taught to me by my father every now and then, helped tremendously. It wasn't even like strict hours of learning. It was just using chances to show me stuff.

From my mother I learned to actually pay attention how I write words. Initially, my spelling was only OKish, not great, until one day I somehow realized "Hey I just have to think a little and pay attention." and suddenly had good spelling. But this didn't come about, without my mother sitting down with me and complaining about my handwriting and also once or twice forcing me to do some writing. My handwriting is still no good though. Glad that didn't influence my grades. I write better Chinese characters, than German words, apparently.

If I had children, I would definitely try to teach them such things. Even if it is just how to look at something or what to pay attention to, or small calculation tricks. I would try to make their learning easier and offer support when they need it to learn.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago

Your bit about numbers “fitting” into each other is exactly my intuition about division as well, probably formed at a young age. 7, 3 and 21 fit together in my mind like “Kiki” is sharp and “bouba” is round. Or how I could intuit the word “melt” in German was “schmelzen” before I ever learned it - it’s a core memory of mine just guessing that word from the ether and being correct, and felt like validation that I could become fluent.

Methodology is important but growing these intuitions feels critical to me, but no idea if that is something can be taught as much as it’s learned.

Animats an hour ago

> My mum was a mechanic, my dad was a mechanic/truck driver.

"And you, too, will be a mechanic", which is how that usually goes.

People should spend enough time with tools to get the basic skills down. Some years ago a Stanford mechanical engineering prof was complaining to me that many of the Indian students from wealthy families thought that using tools was beneath them. "They've never used a pair of pliers." Now, to some extent, that mindset has spread to the American middle class.

ThrowawayR2 5 hours ago

> "...Bill Gates were college dropouts, but the market deemed them good."

Gates had excellent grades and was credited in an academic paper during his undergraduate years. Not exactly like the average dropout.

> "Now that I think of it, apparently Einstein was a mediocre student, but his contributions to science were his way out. "

That's a myth. Einstein got top grades in science and mathematics.

As for the original question, "If you wish to build a ship, do not divide the men into teams and send them to the forest to cut wood. Instead, teach them to long for the vast and endless sea.", incorrectly attributed to Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

paid_dot_expert an hour ago

Good lesson to fact-check even the things we "know" when writing.

gavinray 29 minutes ago

I am a highschool dropout, so I am perhaps not the best judge of this, but I later worked on-campus at a major university and befriended many students, most of whom struggled to find employment after graduation.

I would counter that education, at least in the USA, does not adequately prepare one for life, the real world, and effectively finding employment.

What ACTUALLY mattered in my life turned out to be:

1. Who you know, and by proxy, what kind of a person you are

2. The value of "just showing up", every day

3. How important personal relationships/networking are, and just how SMALL the world is for how vast its size

Knowledge and skills are things you can sort of just pick up as you go along, but being given any kind of opportunity in the first place is not quite so easy.

seb1204 2 hours ago

Compassion, respect for all living things no matter the colour or gender, how to live healthy and physically active, financial literacy. Most of these things have a huge role model part. Don't give him a screen mounted to the stroller.

Remember that while still being unborn the child will get acquainted with you voice and time if voice. Once born he will observe you and how you conduct yourself from very early on; how you treat others, how you swear, how you treat your wife, and nowadays your device pickup habits too.

bijowo1676 2 hours ago

you cant teach these, the kid will naturally pick up and learn from parents and the environment.

so the best way to teach your kids is to teach yourself to be a better person

john_strinlai 2 hours ago

>you cant teach these,

you can absolutely teach those

bijowo1676 2 hours ago

regardless of how you teach them, the kids will grow up just like their parents

john_strinlai 2 hours ago

parents are a huge factor, yes, but what you've said is not an absolute.

my dad was an abusive alcoholic. i have never laid a hand on my kids. i am not just like my dad.

exmadscientist an hour ago

I think "exactly like their parents" and "exactly opposite their parents" are indeed the two most likely outcomes.

(And congratulations on breaking the cycle. It's not easy.)

lawn 2 hours ago

That's not an absolute rule, of course...

toomuchtodo 2 hours ago

Religions lose half their members every generation, I beliebe the evidence is robust kids can pick a different path than their parents. You can guide, support, and nurture, but their personality is theirs once they reach escape velocity. Empathy and curiosity is brain structure though (the amygdala, broadly speaking).

Drop in U.S. Religiosity Among Largest in World - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45916273 - November 2025 (1 comment)

Catholic Schools and Weekly Mass Aren’t Solving the Retention Crisis - https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/catholic-schools-and-w... - October 15th, 2026 (“Just 58% of People Raised Catholic Are Still Catholic”)

The LDS Church Has a Retention Problem - https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-lds-church-has-a-r... - August 6th, 2026 (“Just a bare majority of kids raised LDS are still LDS as adults (54%)“)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48634883 (additional citations)

(parent)

edmundsauto 2 hours ago

… but you can’t force them to learn. Explicit instruction that isn’t backed by modeled behavior isn’t going to be very effective, IMO.

john_strinlai an hour ago

right. "teaching" isn't restricted solely to explicit instruction.

Foobar8568 2 hours ago

At this stage, I feel kids learn more in their environments than their parents...

Behavior learnt from school is exhausting me.

ballmerpoint 4 hours ago

> My favorite suggestions of Postman’s are:

> Spaceship Earth – we’re all in this together; let’s take care of each other and our planet

> The American Experiment – let’s revive our sense of wonder, curiosity, and responsibility about what America is and can be

> The World Makers – as a student of McLuhan, Postman would be remiss if he didn’t invite students to make the tools and narratives that thereafter make us

These memes make me nostalgic for the pre-9/11 era. I remember being taught to consider myself as a “citizen of the world.” That seems exceedingly quaint now.

fasterik 4 hours ago

A lot of people still feel this way, possibly the majority. I think we're already starting to see a backlash against the cynical politics of the past decade and a renewed interest in shared values.

sailfast 4 hours ago

Maybe! I hope so!

But the more I hope, the more one single cynical sociopath seems to co-opt the entire commons for their own purposes. The leverage of sociopathy is incredible.

senderista 2 hours ago

Sadly this individual has destroyed my aversion to political violence in both instrumental and moral terms.

ballmerpoint 3 hours ago

I don’t really agree. Carl Sagan and other public intellectuals popularized these sorts of memes but no one really stepped in to replace them. The Ezra Kleins and Nate Silvers of the contemporary world are not in the same class. And the culture is so much more anti-intellectual than it was back then...

jimbob45 2 hours ago

Nate Silver’s early 538 work absolutely was this. He was spitting out minitab output from the command line straight into articles to answer fun questions like, “Is Tom Brady the most efficient passer of all time?”. It’s a capital offense that the NYT scrubbed the web of everything from 538.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

None of that makes you a “citizen of the world”.

That’s just a moniker wealthy elites who feel more connected to other wealthy elites in largely indistinguishable major metropolitan cities, than they do to people from any specific place or nation.

arjie an hour ago

Grand thoughts always meet reality poorly. Does Spaceship Earth mean that you live in the forest to be surrounded by the greenery or live in a high-rise to preserve the greenery? Do you allow the other to exist to preserve Spaceship Earth? Environmental organizations in San Francisco treat this question like Shiri's Scissor. It is not so easy to coordinate people - disagreements on the specifics can easily fragment coalitions.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

Well it was still completely meaningless back then, too.

ballmerpoint 2 hours ago

For a completely meaningless notion you do seem able to dispute its meaning in the sibling thread.

Not that it matters much to me whether it was or is meaningful or not. Nostalgia is simply a feeling that doesn’t imply much about its object.

chasd00 41 minutes ago

I have two boys ages 14 and almost 17. First priority is for both mom and dad to invest the time and energy to build a bedrock solid relationship from day 0. It's so frustrating and exhausting but that's priority 1.

When my kids were small we were either at the Perot museum or the Dallas World Aquarium every Saturday morning (giving mom a break). We had family memberships to both of those places and we used it to the fullest. Going to the same places over and over seems boring but I think it really helped them digest what they were seeing and messing with. I feel like a new experience every day is enriching but also overwhelming, especially for really small kids.

I always joked with them "get good at learning and you don't have to get good at anything else". I feel like they've done a pretty solid job at that and can learn/develop their own interests at will. My youngest taught himself guitar, he's really good too, and knows a handful of RATM songs which isn't the easiest music.

Both have gravitated to STEM and attend the magnet HS's in Dasllas ISD ( Townview TAG and Townview SEM ). My oldest is interested in petroleum engineering (i don't really know why, he just is) but my youngest spends all his free time and before school time with his creative writing teacher who he loves. Time will tell with him i guess.

fasterik 4 hours ago

I hope we see a revival of the humanities in the coming decades. The original meaning of "liberal" in liberal education referred to cultivating free human beings (Latin libertas). Arguably, the most important skills going forward are the ability to think independently and critically, to adapt to new circumstances, to formulate one's thoughts in a coherent and convincing manner, and to understand things in a broader historical perspective.

Apocryphon 4 hours ago

I'm not sure how widespread this meme (in the general sense, not the internet fad sense) is, but I came across it theorized by this humanities account, Adam Walker - Close Reading Poetry:

The New Renaissance is Coming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCvixEyV10Q

dyauspitr 4 hours ago

Making money is going to be everyone’s primary goal, especially if you’re now competing against machines as well. If you ask me, my prediction is that humanities and liberal arts as organized schools of thought are going to fall even more to the wayside unless you’re very rich. It’s going to be replaced by cultural memes and other short relatable digestible pieces of “community” knowledge kind of like a lot of the youth already.

yellowapple 4 hours ago

> Making money is going to be everyone’s primary goal

I disagree. Making money is a means to an end, that end being one's ability to live a comfortable life as a member of society. If other means are able to achieve that end, then that reduces the need (or even desire) for money.

While I'd cynically agree that modern society as structured today will fight tooth and nail to keep those other means from being viable (because the current powers-that-be are such specifically because they were able to accumulate the most money), that doesn't have to be the case. We can and should demand better.

dyauspitr 4 hours ago

You can demand whatever you want, but most people are not going to be with you. Very few people at least in the US are going to agree with the communist perspective that a street cleaner or security guard should be paid the same amount as a doctor. You can suggest some form of workable socialism, which would be good, but I am mainly referring to the transition phase between now and some sort of utopian future where resources are unlimited and robots do all of our physical and mental labor. That transition period is going to last decades or for the rest of our lives and most of the early period, at the very least, for our kids.

burgreblast 4 hours ago

Exactly. Making money is a means to an end.

For those for whom making money is a primary goal, they miss their essential purpose in life.

dyauspitr 4 hours ago

That’s just a random platitude that everyone will agree with, but has no workable means of achievement in the real world.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

OK so how do you acquire everything you need in order to achieve your essential purpose, without making money?

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

Who said anything about not making money?

Kirth 40 minutes ago

"means to an end"

SoftTalker 4 hours ago

Humans as individuals and groups will fight tooth and nail to "have more" because that is our nature. Money was a brilliant invention that allowed people to get what they want without forcefully taking it from someone else, or having a particular skill or thing that you could barter.

XorNot 2 hours ago

No they won't..like, observably they won't. This is a problem almost every entrepreneur who looked at small businesses as a start up opportunity ran into immediately: most small businesses are run by people who are exactly happy with where they got to, and so showing up and promising you'll expand the business goes over as well as a lead balloon.

SoftTalker 2 hours ago

People are generally fine with a personal decision of "I have enough" they are much less happy about being told that by a government.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

What the hell does “demand better” even mean here?

Like global economic and political systems has a manager you can demand to speak to like a Karen getting subpar customer service?

Any change is going to require wide spread spiritual and moral change in the general populace first.

warkdarrior 2 hours ago

> What the hell does “demand better” even mean here?

Probably asking for $5000 checks from the government.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

Trump has that covered.

Just vote Republican! He promised!

fasterik 4 hours ago

>Making money is going to be everyone’s primary goal, especially if you’re now competing against machines as well

What you've just stated is a Marxist/materialist perspective. Up to a certain point of meeting basic survival needs, it's probably true. But there are other ways to think about what ultimately determines human goals once survival needs are met. This illustrates my point about the humanities, often we put our thinking into boxes without realizing that the box exists at all.

guitarlimeo 2 hours ago

Why are you guys so obsessed with money? You can live a perfectly good life with little wealth if you want to, humans are really great at adapting.

red_candle_wax 2 hours ago

> I hope we see a revival of the humanities in the coming decades. The original meaning of "liberal" in liberal education referred to cultivating free human beings (Latin libertas).

I doubt it given how liberalism is falling out of favor in politics so rapidly

wkoszek 5 minutes ago

The right question might be: how to expose a kid to many things to pick up what are they into. And how to let them spend as much time on it as possible.

jacquesm 4 hours ago

To be adaptive. That's going to be the most valuable skill going forward, to be able to adapt to any and all circumstances that may come your way because it is going to be a rough ride for at least the next decade and possibly much longer than that.

I'm in the same boat as the author, have four kids and I struggle with keeping them motivated and this has been my anchor so far.

dijit 4 hours ago

That's always been an important skill (at least in the last couple hundred years as far as I can tell).

Industrial revolution, the shift from manufacturing to services, the shift of technology over time.

Hell, they say that the reason millennials are so nostalgic and enjoy childish things is because of rapid technological and societal change in the last 30 years.

I doubt it'll slow down, the era of doing anything until you die was a foolish thing for even our grandparents generation.

dyauspitr 4 hours ago

That’s really not a teachable skilled to any real degree. In my opinion, that heavily depends on your personality and depends significantly more on nature than nurture. It’s also basically a tacit approval of dabbling in a field, or having a shallow knowledge of many fields, something I think the world will move further away from the more broad shallow tasks that AI will be able to accomplish at human levels. Teaching adaptability is basically a version of throwing up your hands and saying I don’t know what to do.

jacquesm 4 hours ago

> That’s really not a teachable skilled to any real degree.

I strongly disagree with that.

> In my opinion, that heavily depends on your personality and depends significantly more on nature than nurture.

Nature has set us up to be amongst the most adaptive creatures on the planet. I think only the rats and the microbes have us beat. We are everywhere. One of the things that struck me while traveling the world and visiting some pretty out-of-the-way places is that there were always people living there as if it was perfectly normal.

> It’s also basically a tacit approval of dabbling in a field, or having a shallow knowledge of many fields, something I think the world will move further away from the more broad shallow tasks that AI will be able to accomplish at human levels.

Why would it have to be shallow? If you spend your time wisely you can easily pick up more than a shallow knowledge about multiple fields. Yes, it is work. So what.

> Teaching adaptability is basically a version of throwing up your hands and saying I don’t know what to do.

Not really, but again, you are welcome to that opinion, I just don't share it.

The time when a single skill would get you from the cradle to the grave is over and done with. And probably has been for a while but it is going to be much more fractured going forward.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

I’ve done okay with my single skill (IT expert). It may be a bit broader than what some would call a skill, though :)

jacquesm an hour ago

Best of luck.

dyauspitr an hour ago

> Why would it have to be shallow? If you spent your time wisely you can easily pick up more than a shallow knowledge about multiple fields. Yes, it is work. So what.

Because when you ground this in reality, if you spend 3 to 5 years in a field and moved to another field and spend 3 to 5 years in that from a monetary perspective, you are always going to be a junior you are going to spend your entire life doing low-level tasks and getting paid at low levels.

jacquesm 27 minutes ago

I don't think that's true either, or a least, it wasn't until the bots came of age. There was plenty of gold to be found on the crossroads of various fields and the matrix of skills is large enough that the competition is immediately a small fraction of what it is within any one field.

anothereng 13 minutes ago

You should teach your son to be virtuous according to philosophers and the catholic tradition. A virtuous person will do what is right wherever he is

hippycruncher22 6 minutes ago

A life of privilege does this read like.

procaryote 2 hours ago

Thinking radio, calculators, the internet etc will make teachers obsolete misses something fundamental.

Could people learn by themselves? – possibly.

Do they? – generally not.

Having agents changes nothing

Access to information isn't the same thing as competency or skill. Giving someone access to google does not make them educated. Have they met people?

baud9600 44 minutes ago

> “We typically confuse why something claims it exists, ie to glorify God, vs the forces that actually perpetuate it, which are subtler, we’d prefer not spoken aloud, and more prosaic, ie endowments, prestige, and needing someone to watch one’s kids.”

Stafford Beer wrote that the purpose of a system is not its declared intent but what it does - what it manifests, causes or how it behaves (1979, 2001). Higher education has a lofty purpose, but the system manifests as a Defence Contractor among other things like teaching one’s kids. “We’d prefer not spoken aloud” is probably true.

WillAdams 2 hours ago

It kills me that education is not a solved problem --- we have many of the same hurdles which the Greeks faced, and apparently, one of the best schools which I ever attended is no longer run as it once was (classes were divided between academic and social, the latter were attended at one's age level (homeroom, phys. ed, social studies, &c.) and academic classes were attended at one's grade level with teachers at the combined elementary/high school also being accredited as faculty at a nearby college and students being able to continue on to university level study until such time as they had attended their 12th year of education, with the possibility of being awarded not only a high school diploma, but also a college degree, or at least being afforded a transcript of college-level studies to apply at the school of their choice.

One thing which I started with my own children which seemed promising was to read biographies of notable individuals in chronological order as bedtime reading --- since it was a difficult list to compile, I started on a smaller subset of U.S. Presidents which worked well (though I was surprised that there was no child-friendly biography for a couple of them in the local library system necessitating ordering) --- I also tried to read a more formal, adult-oriented biography in advance to anticipate questions. Unfortunately, my wife's schedule changed when we got to Truman and the effort was abandoned due to a changing evening schedule. Note that this was in addition to having read all the C.S. Lewis Narnia books, _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_ pentalogy and many, many other more traditional book choices.

The big thing in child-rearing is to offer the child chances and experiences and age-appropriate choices --- the line in _The Simpsons_ where Homer tells Bart that it's okay that he failed at learning while wrongly phrased does have a kernel of truth in it.

velcrovan 2 hours ago

In what way is education not a solved problem? We know how to get great educational results. People either don't care or actively hate the solutions.

rexskimmer 2 hours ago

It's mostly an socioeconomic problem, at least for US public education. People don't want to pay for other people's kids.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago

We demonstrably pay plenty for other people’s kids, at least through high school (and often Community College) - the resulting education isn’t poor because of lack of funds.

velcrovan an hour ago

Just look at what we do relative to other countries that get better results. Teacher pay is abysmal, teacher-student ratios are abysmal. Lack of social safety nets mean our schools end up being the backstop of last resort for children who are hungry and stressed and whose parents are overworked and stressed. We have this stupid obsession with testing all the time (best practice is no homework and no tests). But hey, if you can afford it you can pay for a private school or homeschool and contribute to the further starvation of the public system.

WillAdams 2 hours ago

A good education is not being provided to every child who is in need of one --- that happening would be a solution to the problem of education, that it does not, is the problem.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago

What would it even look like for education to be “solved”? I think if you put 10 people in a room and asked them what the purpose of education was, you’d get 10 different answers.

kragen 2 hours ago

How to get great educational results is to have a good teacher, or, better, a good individual tutor, and, most importantly, a good student. Also, there are some techniques that help, but those don't matter very much by comparison to how good the teacher is, whether they're teaching a class or an individual, and how good the student is.

There are three reasons this doesn't make education a solved problem:

1. Often, students are not interchangeable, in the sense that the problem we are interested in is how a particular person can get educated, rather than how someone can get educated. So knowing that the quality of the student matters most of all doesn't give us much of an attack on the problem, at least after you solve the obvious problems like iodine deficiency, lead poisoning, kwashiorkor, starting classes at 7 AM, and your best students getting sent off to death camps. Even these are often out of the control of the would-be education reformer. So "have the best students" is the most important thing we know about how to get great education, but it doesn't make education a solved problem.

2. It's difficult to tell which teachers or tutors are good, partly because student quality is so much more important than teacher quality (so a single particularly good or bad student can make a teacher appear particularly good or bad, an effect that is even larger for tutors, and overall student populations are also variable, for example because of admission requirements or brain drains), and partly because the bad teachers and tutors have strong incentives to fudge the signal. Generally speaking, those running educational institutions are drawn from among the worst teachers, compounding this problem. So, although "use the best teachers and tutors" is a thing we know about how to get great educational results, but when we don't know who the best teachers and tutors are, it doesn't make education a solved problem.

3. There aren't enough really good tutors to tutor more than a tiny fraction of students individually, so even if you can get the best tutors to teach (forbidden by law in many places, for example by teacher-licensing requirements, and often economically unappealing for the tutors) you're still left with the important question of what to do with the majority of the population. So "tutor individually rather than teaching a group" and "use really good tutors" are things we know about how to get great educational results, but it doesn't make education a solved problem, even when we know who those tutors are.

4. Plausibly, there is some way that we could still get much better educational results than the best tutors tutoring the best students today. Many of the things that students today do to improve their educational results, such as consulting Wikipedia, memorizing vocabulary with spaced repetition systems like Anki, or reading books, are things that were not technologically possible at some point in the past.

None of these problems are a result of people not caring or actively hating the solutions.

lp92 an hour ago

You should teach your child how to learn and think critically. This is probably the biggest skill that can be taught to a child now days.

ksd482 4 hours ago

> That the way we teach what we teach is often more important than the what.

Partially agreed.

Whatever we teach today will be solved or obsolete tomorrow anyway. In fact, in school we learn methods that are never used in real life anyway. So the "what" is not fully the point.

It's how we teach it and what the point of it. The point of it is to teach how to learn things, how to practice, how to become experts, how to struggle with them and persevere eventually. It is not a sort of an exercise for our minds, but it is exactly an exercise for our minds. That's the point.

The "what" matters in that it is a foundation of knowledge upon which future knowledge and understanding is built.

So, I agree with the spirit of the argument but it is a bit more nuanced.

fn-mote 4 hours ago

While I agree with this, it seems like by this measure the educational system is failing in most places.

criddell 2 hours ago

Based on my experiences with the teachers my kids had a decade or so ago, all you would have to do is find a way to test for it and then put it on the state-mandated test that is used to evaluate schools.

Often the only thing that is taught is what is on those tests.

jimbokun 2 hours ago

That’s a good thing.

Assessing and measuring student knowledge is very important. Impossible to evaluate and improve current teaching methods otherwise.

OkayPhysicist an hour ago

The one-two punch of Goodhart's law and the McNamara fallacy bites hard here, though. We only measure things we can easily quantify, and then we optimize around those measurements, destroying their efficacy as second-order indicators of the things we couldn't figure out how to measure.

For example is the purpose of educating children about history A) to give them a systemic, if somewhat cursory, understanding of the evolution of society, in order allow them to contextualize the present? or B) ensure they know a list of a hundred or so people and events that happened?

It is much easier to quantify the latter.

NetMageSCW an hour ago

I somewhat disagree- I think a lot of what is taught today will be useful in most people’s lifetimes.

dumpHero2 4 hours ago

School only worked for me because it forced structure onto my learning. Live lectures rarely engaged me, math and physics aside. So traditional teaching wasn't the draw. What mattered were the guardrails: quarterly exams, a peer group to measure myself against, and a pace that forced me to push past initial boredom until a subject clicked.

Without clear goalposts, external accountability, and support, self paced learning feels like running in a desert. You just end up going in circles. That’s exactly why MOOCs never worked for me, nor for thousands of others.

drBonkers 2 hours ago

Your description feels very apt. I was great in a classroom but I've done poorly learning alone outside of it. Do you have any recommendations on how to pick up new subjects and material after college?

jimbokun 2 hours ago

Yes, the certification of acquired knowledge has always been the real value of educational institutions.

moj 2 hours ago

Learn how to break down a problem when you're stuck.

When I was ~10, I tried to get my TRS-80 (yikes I'm old) to display something like the star wars death star on its primitive graphics. I got pretty far, thanks to the trig examples in the manual. But I was flummoxed that my degree measurements yielded crazy sin/cos results. I felt crushed. Some years later I learned about radians. I often think back how my life trajectory might have been different had I known something simple: how to break problems down.

NetMageSCW an hour ago

Knowing to read the manual at that age may have proven invaluable in the future.

HP calculator manuals used to be really useful for teaching that.

pianopatrick an hour ago

I suggest you have them learn a foreign language when young. Particularly Spanish and Chinese.

Kids get addicted to video games and TV. I think you should just set those into Spanish and Chinese. Tell them "play all the video games you want so long as the games are in Spanish or Chinese, you're learning a language".

markus_zhang an hour ago

Other than literacy and Math, I’d say, if you are capable, and is willing, teach them about everything that involves some manual labor.

DIY, homesteading, animal husbandry, electronics repairs, survival skills, cooking, whatever that cannot be easily automated.

Also teach them weapon handling, surveying, map reading, ham radio.

hn_acc1 37 minutes ago

Growing up, my daughters HATED anything STEM (maybe because I'm such a nerd :-)

Now they're realizing that all "work" is tech related, and younger one is actually taking comp sci.

JKCalhoun an hour ago

"I will teach my children to lie.

They will know it's wrong to be right.

It's the only way they'll ever get paid.

I will teach them to lie."

— Mobius Band Twilight

No, I don't agree with it. But on my most cynical days… I do enjoy the song.