What was a Token Ring network? (dfarq.homeip.net)
js2 8 minutes ago
rhdunn 25 minutes ago
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R18APaR7mTQ at 28:54.
NoMoreNicksLeft 9 minutes ago
blakesterz 7 hours ago
alterom 4 hours ago
Never ever seen it in my life though. It was a big "WAS" even then.
The i386-i486 machines we had in middle school were on the Ethernet bus (I remember the BNC cable going along the classroom, with T-joints to the network cards).
IIRC Token Ring wasn't a thing in practice for 100Mbit speeds and beyond, and went the way of the dodo faster than DOS did.
jwr 6 hours ago
In comparison to that, traditional ethernet (think concentric cabling and terminators) glitched often and one flaky part of a cable could ruin your day.
ARCNET was much slower in theory, but robust, fair and stable and did not totally die under load from a single client.
gh02t 6 hours ago
e12e 5 hours ago
teeray 4 hours ago
gh02t 3 hours ago
I've definitely never seen any old Thicknet networks in use, though I have seen Token Ring in active use semi-recently. I never learned anything about Token Ring other than I remember old CompTIA mentioning it existed.
I do have a fondness for seeing this old tech that was way out of my reach or just barely too old to encounter back in the day being used, it's so neat to learn about. ClabRetro on YouTube is one of my few "drop everything and watch a new video" creators.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3 minutes ago
And at my previous job, in a quite normal office, there was a wallplate labeled DEC with the weirdest jack I've ever seen. I couldn't visually identify it, and I thought I knew everything. 1.5" inches wide, with a plastic spring-loaded cover that came down from the top. Maybe only two conductors in it, not normal rj-style pins at all. I'd guess something Vax, but I thought those were always ethernet since the early 80s, and anything older still wouldn't likely have survived until 2025.
EvanAnderson 7 hours ago
Fast-forward to 2013, when my wife was giving birth to our daughter in one of their hospitals, and I noticed an unused type-1 token ring wall jack in our room right beside some occupied 8P8C (aka RJ-45) jacks.
wmf 6 hours ago
kjs3 6 hours ago
prirun 4 hours ago
Fun fact: each system had an IN and an OUT coax port, and the coax cable was about as thick as a thumb. If a system died, a small hardware box short circuited, tying the IN and OUT coaxes together. This kept the ring intact, but it would also make that segment of the network longer and there were strict distance limitations between nodes. If the distance got too big, the entire ring broke. Also, if any coax cable got damaged, that also lead to a ring break. Prime had a special diagnostic program they could use on multiple nodes to try to find ring breaks.
ilamont 9 minutes ago
It didn't last. Gigabit Ethernet began popping up around the time of the dot-com bubble bursting. That was it for Token Ring.
dlinder 7 hours ago
kragen 3 hours ago
mac3n an hour ago
IEEE 802.4 token bus standard was withdrawn
polled buses with a master are pretty common when you don't mind the performance hit and central-point-of-failure. i believe cable networks work this way.
aeonik 31 minutes ago
Being able to handle a collision without needing the higher priority message to skip a single beat seemed like magic to me when I first learned about it
mac3n an hour ago
HarHarVeryFunny 7 hours ago
Token Ring was a networking alternative to Ethernet.
With Ethernet when a node wants to transmit it just does so, then backs off and retries if there was a collision (someone else trying to transmit at the same time).
Token Ring avoided collisions by passing a "permission to transmit" token from node to node in circular (ring) fashion.
teeray 4 hours ago
dspillett 7 hours ago
Essentially that was the same for Ethernet too, everything on the same leg needs to talk at the same speed, though IIRC a different speed device wouldn't take down everything, it would just cause a significant excess of collisions due to the out-of-sync cross-talk and not be able to talk to anything itself. It wasn't until switching hubs and full switches were around that you could mix speeds on the same leg (with a switching hub you'd actually have two legs, one at each speed, bridged, with a full switch you have a separate collision domain per port so can mix speeds quite freely).
cf100clunk 6 hours ago
rtkwe 6 hours ago
cf100clunk 5 hours ago
alterom 3 hours ago
If you want to see how Scott Adams has gone crazy, watch e.g. Behind the Bastards episode(s) on him:
cf100clunk 3 hours ago
teddyh 5 hours ago
PeterWhittaker 5 hours ago
In principle, token ring was faster than Ethernet (which was CSMA/CD in the day): the mathematics of token ring were exact and analytic, and, when solved, gave higher speeds and better reliability than Ethernet, the mathematics of which were so complex (think three-body-problem) that analytic solutions were available only for bounding equations, which resolved to slower than token ring.
In practice, Ethernet was much faster.
A classic "the model is not the territory" problem.
hnlmorg 4 hours ago
I don’t disbelieve the author here but anecdotally the only time I’ve worked with coax BNC plugs for networking is with TR. And it be never seen a TR network in the wild that wasn’t coax.
It’s interesting to read that other cable types existed for TR.
markus_zhang 5 hours ago
That textbook was sort of system textbook which describes a lot of low level stuffs such as networking, hard disks and such.
mannyv 6 hours ago
In fact, broadcast ethernet is essentially token ring, except instead of a token it just grabs the wire. Only one machine can grab the wire at a time. Switches hide that from most people.
kjs3 6 hours ago
No, 'broadcast ethernet' is not token ring. There is no token. It's not a ring. Switches do hide the details, but it's hiding collision domains, not token passing.
countrymile 4 hours ago
IBM were still using them in 2004.
bharrison 9 hours ago
gosub100 5 hours ago
owlbortch 4 hours ago
sharktheone 5 hours ago
throw0101c 4 hours ago
browningstreet 6 hours ago
zen_kernal 6 hours ago
Kye 6 hours ago
bell-cot 8 hours ago
Lot more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_Ring
datakan 7 hours ago
kjs3 6 hours ago
The main reason Ethernet won the war was because it was cheaper.
He should have stopped there. That was it. And because it was cheaper, less complicated to build the chips, 'good enough' networking, a bunch of folks jumped on the bandwagon. And here we are.
If you had a 16 megabit network and brought up a system at 4 megabits, it took down the whole network.
Well, yes, everyone who has ever mentioned TR tells some variation of this. And if you left the terminator off of the coax ethernet, you brought the whole network down. But TR got smart MAUs and ethernet got UTP hubs around the same time and problem solved.
And hubs were a lot cheaper than smart MAUs. Sooo...
Ethernet was junk if you went with the cheapest options all around, but you could make it acceptable if you invested some of the savings in improved technology.
Just like TR. If you were deploying dirt cheap 8228s after 1990 or so, your network still sucked. You didn't do that.
But the other reason Ethernet won was because of scale.
Yes, there was a thing called 100Mb Token Ring. Someone might have even shipped some number of them. I never saw one in the wild, and I don't know anyone who claimed they had who didn't work for IBM or Madge (which, btw, wasn't an 'obscure' network company at the time and made more than just TR cards).
That's because basically everyone who did Token Ring (IBM most of all) had decided that you wanted to scale TR you were going to ATM (for a bunch of mostly political and marketing reasons). Which, unlike TR, was in reality a very bad idea, but that's another story.
I've never even heard anyone even suggest 128Mb Token Ring, and I suspect someones LLM is hallucinating. There was a gigabit Token Ring standard (IEEE 802.5v), but I feel pretty confident saying noone ever shipped it. Like I said...ATM was gonna be the future.
Ethernet used a 15-pin connector that looks quite a bit like a PC joystick connector. Token Ring used a 9-pin connector that looks like a 9-pin video connector or an Atari style joystick plug.
Ok...I'll just be snarky and point out there are ethernet cards that use a 9-pin D-sub connector to reuse a TR wiring physical plant. I have several.
Coax connectors for Token Ring did exist
Citation needed. I've seen coax for 802.4 industrial networking stuff, which is not TR. I'm betting more hallucinations.
ARCNET was another competitor from the same timeframe. It, too, was a contender for a while because it was backed by Datapoint, a pioneer in office automation using small computers.
Arcnet was a contender because it was even cheaper than ethernet and it was (and still is) widely used in industrial environments. And some popular early PC file sharing systems (e.g. LANTastic) would use Arcnet.
kens 6 hours ago
In 1970, Datapoint created a desktop computer, the Datapoint 2200, with an 8-bit TTL processor. Intel created a microprocessor version of this processor for Datapoint, called the Intel 8008. Datapoint decided to stick with TTL, so Intel ended up selling the 8008 as a general-purpose microprocessor. Intel improved it to make the 8080, then made a 16-bit version, the 8086, as a stopgap product until the iAPX 432 micro-mainframe was ready. The iAPX 432 was a disaster and that's how you ended up with x86.
kjs3 5 hours ago
kjs3 an hour ago
ErroneousBosh 4 hours ago
I wish I had a smart mau but she is standing on the windowsill mau-ing at the part that doesn't open while the other side is wide open. In the rain. Which is getting inside while she maus to get inside.
kjs3 3 hours ago
quickthrowman 6 hours ago
https://www.automatedlogic.com/en/media/AAR_CS-aug2023_tcm70...
compiler-guy 6 hours ago
Ethernet got its latest in 2022 and another is in the pipeline.