English: A vs. An (redblobgames.com)

210 pointsby azhenley12 hours ago286 comments

bugufu8f83 39 minutes ago

> if word.startswith("ub"): return False

An uber-rich man riding in an Uber installed an Ubuntu package.

I'm actually a bit surprised by this rule. Is this line there entirely due to the word "ubiquitous"? I think it is.

hbn 10 hours ago

A funny quirk of English I never noticed until I started learning Spanish:

In Spanish, to say for example, "he is a doctor," you would say "él es médico." Which more literally translates to "he is doctor," which feels unintuitive coming from English. Spanish DOES have an equivalent for "a" - "un/una", so the natural thing for an English speaker to say would be "él es UN médico", but I understand that to be awkward/unnatural.

But then I realized, when you say the same sentence in plural - "they are doctors" - you don't have an article. You don't say "they are some doctors" (I had to Google, apparently "some" isn't an article anyway?)

So Spanish ends up more consistent - Singular: "Él es médico." Plural: "Ellos son medicos."

Unlike English - Singular: "He is a doctor." Plural: "They are doctors."

asveikau 10 hours ago

The further back you go in Indo-European languages, they don't have articles. It's a relatively recent innovation.

So for example latin didn't have them. Eventually they evolved from ille and unus.

Much of Eastern Europe still does not have articles.

rawling 10 hours ago

> The further back you go in Indo-European languages, they don't have articles.

Heh, while we're discussing English, this annoys me.

"The further back you go" is a continuum, the effect you describe should be too.

> The further back you go, the fewer Indo-European languages have articles.

Or match a discontinuity with a discontinuity.

> If you go back beyond a certain point, Indo-European languages don't have articles.

asveikau 9 hours ago

I actually meant it as a continuum. In classical latin, ille and unus exist, but they are not articles. In the vulgar latin period circa 800ad, they are pretty close to articles. In modern romance they're articles.

You can't say "beyond a certain point" because what point that is varies with geography.

Joker_vD 7 hours ago

The whole (over)insistence on using the determiners in general seems to be a relatively recent innovation as well, the articles being a large part of it. I am talking about constructions like "he shoved his hand into his pocket and pulled out his wallet" — why not just "he shoved hand into pocket and pulled out wallet"? The context is pretty self-evident, and if you really need to specify some deviation from it (he shoved his hand into someone else's pocket, but still pulled out his wallet), you always can do it by, you know, using the determiners; except now they actually will be non-redundant.

podocarp 3 hours ago

Indeed that begins to sound like so called caveman talk. He shove hand in pocket and pull out wallet.

Joker_vD 3 hours ago

And yet e.g. włożył rękę do kieszeni i wyjął portfel is a pretty natural-sounding Polish sentence. Grug trusts others not stupid.

al_borland 10 hours ago

I suppose you could say, “they are both doctors” or “they are all doctors.”

Those sound fine to me, depending on context.

aldanor 10 hours ago

Yes, but then it may sound as if "both/all" is being highlighted which it isn't in the neutral "they are doctors" statement

zelphirkalt 12 minutes ago

And there we get to the word both or all, where interestingly Mandarin has an (over)insistence on using it, even in places, where it seems unnecessary.

cvhc 10 hours ago

There is no plural equivalent of a/an. So where you would use a/an becomes no-article for plural nouns.

bradrn 10 hours ago

It’s simply that, in English, there is no indefinite plural article — or, equivalently, that the indefinite plural article is null. So ‘they are doctors’ is consistent with the behaviour of plural nouns elsewhere.

Contrast this with, for example, French, where the indefinite singular un(e) correspond to the indefinite plural des: La boulangerie vend des baguettes ‘the bakery sells baguettes’ (whereas English cannot say *‘a baguettes’). But as in Spanish, professions take no article either way: Il est médecin / Ils sont médecins. So all three languages are self-consistent, just in their own ways.

hbn 9 hours ago

English still feels hard to explain when things sound natural and when they don't.

You can say "there are some vendors in the street" and it sounds normal. But if you were to say "they are some vendors" it sounds weird. It's pretty firmly more natural to say "they are vendors."

bradrn 9 hours ago

Oh, certainly, as is the case for any language!

In the case you mention, I note that Huddleston & Pullum in their Cambridge Grammar of the English Language specifically call ‘some’ an existential determiner. As is usual with them, this is an insightful observation: you use ‘some <noun>’ specifically in order to say that there exists some set of things drawn from some larger set or in some configuration. You say ‘there are some vendors in the street’ because you’re drawing attention to their existence in the street (and indeed ‘there is/are’ is the prototypical English expression for existentials). You don’t say ‘they are some vendors’, because the use of ‘they’ implies some specific group of vendors already known to both speaker and listener — highlighting their existence again feels weird.

(Of course, this analysis is still incomplete. At some point you simply have to list all the specific ways in which ‘some’ is used — which, indeed, is exactly what Huddleston & Pullum do. Furthermore I’m certain that there is some discourse context in which ‘they are some vendors’ would be natural, even though I haven’t managed to think of one just yet.)

schoen 8 hours ago

I'm not sure this is the best achievable example, but maybe:

"The street vendors have decided to oppose the ordinance."

"But I thought Mike and Jacob said they support the ordinance. And Julia! Aren't they vendors?"

"They are some vendors, but most vendors take the opposite position."

subarctic 7 hours ago

That one is more natural without the word "some" imo

schoen 4 hours ago

I agree, so it's still not an ideal example.

lelanthran an hour ago

Depends where the stress is.

"They are some vendors, not all vendors" is natural.

"They are vendors, not all vendors"is equally natural.

Written without stress indicators, most dialog can sound unnatural.

cwnyth 6 hours ago

More simply: "Some vendors support the ordinance, but most oppose it."

jrmg 8 hours ago

And “they are some vendors” usually actually means “they are excellent vendors”!

1-more 7 hours ago

Really depends on how you say “some”

rectang 5 hours ago

I will die on the hill that "SOME PIG" from Charlotte's Web was merely an existential determiner.

user43928 an hour ago

And doesn't "some vendors they are" mean the opposite?

Onavo 10 hours ago

Is French different? Il est un médecin? Il est médecin? Ils sont médecins sounds fine.

TacticalCoder 9 hours ago

Nope, it's basically as in spanish:

> Il est un médecin?

Nope that's bogus french: you say "il est médecin". But you can say: "c'est un médecin".

makeitdouble 6 hours ago

> That's bogus

To expand a bit, it's a perfectly valid use, but most people will forgo having an extra word that has no role in the phrase.

"Il est médecin" and "Il est un médecin" are perfectly equivalent so people will choose the shorter.

The "un" comes back when using the noun as an adjective isn't possible anymore, e.g. by adding an actual adjective "Il est un bon médecin"

nutjob2 9 hours ago

In "They are doctors" the 'they' is the subject and you don't need articles. 'They' is plural.

But in "The doctors are female" you do because the subject is some specific group of doctors. It's singular because its a single group of things.

Joker_vD 7 hours ago

> you don't need articles. 'They' is plural.

But why not? Plural indefinite article exists in some languages, why not in English?

jacobsimon 3 hours ago

I can’t speak about other languages but in my head the simplest reason is that English “a/an” specifies “one”, eg “I have a cat and two dogs.” I googled and confirmed a/an is Old English for “one” but otherwise they didn’t use articles. I assume it’s a similar origin story for other languages like “un/una/une”. In that case, it’s equally strange that other languages would make “one” plural imo.

lozf 9 hours ago

Certainly English can be odd. It can usually be understood through tough thorough thought though.

pigpag 9 hours ago

Over-learning Portuguese (as a beginner) almost make me feel that "He is a doctor" should become "They are as doctors".

thayne 8 hours ago

Interstingly it is the same in german, you would say "Er ist Arzt" not "Er ist ein Arzt". Which makes me wonder why english uses an indefinite article there, since it doesn't seem to be either germanic or romantic in origin.

1-more 7 hours ago

This was the root of the overblown Kennedy gaffe where he said “ich bin ein Berliner” instead of “ich bin berliner.”

arlcode 6 hours ago

The thing is that doesn't even sound wrong and I don't think any native speaker would object to the article when used with a place of origin/belonging in a speech.

It emphasizes the statement if you ask me.

Only many years after learning of the speech I read online that it's allegedly "a gaffe".

hasley 3 hours ago

To me, "Ich bin Berliner" sounds relatively neutral, or like a short statement. "Ich bin ein Berliner" sounds a bit less direct or a bit softer to me because you state that you are just one of the citizens of Berlin. But this may be just my feeling.

(In case you put the emphasis on "ein", you would clearly emphasize that you are just one of the many Berlin citizens.)

zelphirkalt 33 minutes ago

In this specific case the "ein" emphasizes/expresses that he "is one of us" to the Berliners. Not a gaffe at all, in my opinion.

rpadovani 41 minutes ago

Eh, Italian has it tho.

"(Lui) è un dottore", "(Io) sono un dottore".

"Un" is the indefinite article.

Subject is usually dropped, thus the brackets

tzs 7 hours ago

You are right most of the time for English, but today that should be "Arrr! He be the sawbones".

Spain had pirates too, but I don't speak Spanish so had to ask an LLM. It suggested that today in Spanish it would be "Él es el matasanos del barco". Any authentic Spanish pirates who can verify or correct that?

ggambetta 4 hours ago

Not a pirate but a Spanish speaker.

Interestingly,

He's a doctor [in general] -> el es médico

He's the ship's doctor [this specific ship] -> el es el médico del barco

He's a ship doctor [generally works in ships] -> el es médico de barco

pezezin an hour ago

Matasanos is slang for a bad doctor of dubious talent, it literally means someone who kills healthy people xD

emmelaich 7 hours ago

You can say "they are the doctors" -- but yeah it's a slightly different meaning.

BTW in German, it's a fun distinction. The old "ich bin (ein) Berliner". (or hamburger or frankfurter...)

normie3000 2 hours ago

Works in English too:

* I am Danish.

* I am a Danish.

Or

* I am dancer.

* I am a dancer.

totetsu 2 hours ago

> Singular: "He is a doctor." Plural: "They are doctors."

Here the 'a' is shifting position to become the world final 's'

mdp2021 2 hours ago

It is not the set-pertinence that would get transformed into a plural.

d-us-vb 2 hours ago

There’s an ongoing debate about whether articles are a proper part of speech; the only articles in English are the and a. Some grammarians prefer “determiner”, which includes a, the, some, other, no (as in “no man”) etc. A determiner is just a word that selects/determines an element of a larger assumed universe of discourse.

Some grammarians deny the existence of determiners, as they are not found in traditional grammars of the language, with the words now considered determiners placed in other parts of speech.

mdp2021 2 hours ago

You should not look at superficial similarities between languages, but at logic.

To the question: "What is he?", the answer can be "He is married, tall, doctor in medicine".

On another point of view, "He is a doctor" = "one in the set of the doctors". (But which one of the crowd there? The tall one is the doctor.)

"He is doctor in medicine": identity; "He is a doctor": aside property.

With different expressions, you are not expressing the same thing, but different ideas (some of them more preponderant in use in a territory).

parasti 2 hours ago

Similarities between languages is a much more intuitive approach for non-English speakers. This comment just explains an English idiom in terms of English idioms.

mdp2021 2 hours ago

> Similarities between languages

If they are substantial instead of superficial.

> This comment just explains ... idiom in terms of

the logic behind it. Which is common to many languages.

vanderZwan 2 hours ago

I'm not sure why, but sentence feels forced and unnatural, and as a result a bit unconvincing. My intuition is to insert an "and" at the end of those three options and then it feels like you can't drop the "a", i.e. "married, tall, and a doctor in medicine". I mean, maybe you can but the sentence feels odd to me.

And the weird part is that you can put those three properties in any order, and you would not place an "a" in front of the other two.

thinkingemote an hour ago

English would work for titles:

He is President.

He is Doctor. (Dr.)

"He is president" is different than "he is a president" (one among many) or "he is the president" (the one specific).

But it would have to be within the context of titles

With the specific case, the "the" could be dropped - "who is in running this rpg?" points "he is gamesmaster" which means "he is the gamesmaster".

Probably because it's a role, similar to the title?

zelphirkalt an hour ago

And actually, it is not so common to write the actual personal pronouns in Spanish, as they become more or less clear seeing the verb ending, due to conjugation of the verb. So one would probably say "Es médico.", when in context.

soyyo 44 minutes ago

In spanish you also have to use a/an:

Es un perro (its a dog)

Saying "es perro" makes no sense.

The problem is that you are mixing two different constructs, if you are refering to the whole thing you have to say un/una, if you are describing a property of something you don't use it.

Es un perro, es macho. (It's a dog, is male)

If you are talking about doctor being a property of someone,like his profession, you say "es médico" but if you are refering to the doctor as an entity and not a property of someone you have to use "a":

Es un médico muy famoso (He is a very famous doctor). "Es médico muy famoso" again makes no sense.

Xmd5a 22 minutes ago

il est docteur

vs

c'est un docteur

smusamashah 22 minutes ago

The A becomes An for the same reason as the linking R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R

As a non-native now living in UK I noticed this R sound in some accents. Someone said 'Java (r)Options' which when I asked they didn't even realise they were adding it. Both this R and N in an seem to be used break the continuity of vowels between words.

nikolay 13 minutes ago

English is so much easier than, let's say, Greek, Russian, or French (at least these I know firsthand). Even Bulgarian, my native language, which is simpler than Russian, is much harder than English, with a lot more things to memorize. Two things in English take time: punctuation and vocabulary (with all the nuances of words). Everything else is easy-peasy!

troupo 7 minutes ago

Punctuation is easy in English. Especially compared to Russian.

Spelling is horrendous, and it takes a lot of time to memorize it and internalize it. And even then: https://people.cs.georgetown.edu/nschneid/cosc272/f17/a1/cha...

theanonymousone 3 hours ago

The most problematic for me as a non-native has been "the" vs "nothing", i.e. when one can/should put the definite article.

Pre-LLM I was joking that real AI is whatever can make that decision correctly 100% of times.

jayd16 3 hours ago

As a patron of the 405, there is no consensus.

geocar 3 hours ago

Try making it with "a" - if thing can be "a thing" then it could be "the thing" but if it can't be "a thing" it definitely can't be "the thing" either.

m12k 3 hours ago

Right on the money!

geocar an hour ago

In the 16th century, being "on the money" meant an arrow or a dart being on (or near) a specific physical coin (i.e. the money), like in a tossing or shooting bar-bet.

Being on merely a money (or some money) would likely not be as impressive in said circumstances, and so whilst being grammatically possible in English, it shouldn't seem so likely the sort of thing anyone would ever have had to say.

rom1v 2 hours ago

"I play the piano" or "I play piano"?

ad133 2 hours ago

Weirdly, as an en_GB native, neither of these seems wrong to me. I suspect one is British and one is American, and too much TV has driven me to accept the American one.

jacobolus 2 hours ago

Both of these are common in the US. It doesn't seem like there's any strong regional connection.

Judging from a search, "play the piano" is about 5 times as common as "play piano", but there are also many sources which uses both versions in close proximity, apparently interchangeably.

geocar an hour ago

With context these can mean different things. You might also play a piano, or hire either a player piano, or a piano player.

If you are answering which instrument you play, it's the former, but if we are talking the profession it's the latter, because you don't say then that you play a piano.

landdate 32 minutes ago

"i play piano" - i know how to play piano "i play the piano" - i am playing the piano

that is just my intuition as native english speaker, but the former cojld also mean the latter and i have seen it used like such before.

bob1029 2 hours ago

How do you feel about adjective ordering rules? I always wondered what this was like from the outside.

theanonymousone 2 hours ago

True. That's also a big ambiguity to me. But for some reason I never cared about it as much :/

abraxas 10 hours ago

What gets me as a non-native speaker far more than "a vs an" is the "a vs the" conundrum. I still don't quite get when something needs to be "indefinite" and I've been speaking English for close to forty years. My native tongue lacks articles altogether and it's soo bloody hard I feel hopeless I'll ever master them fully.

CoastalCoder 10 hours ago

Just curious, what is your native tongue?

nephihaha 10 hours ago

My guess is something Slavic (since Slavic languages lack articles apart from Sorbian). I could be wrong. I don't think Finno-Ugric languages have them either. That's just Europe, there are plenty of such examples elsewhere — Japanese has tonnes of suffixes but no direct equivalent to this?

fonheponho 10 hours ago

(Whether Hungarian qualifies as Finno-Ugric is up for debate, but Hungarian most definitely has determinate and indeterminate articles.)

machomaster 10 hours ago

Finnish doesn't.

hackyhacky 4 hours ago

> Whether Hungarian qualifies as Finno-Ugric is up for debate,

Is it up for debate? What is the argument against including Hungarian in Finno-Ugric? I mean, the "Ugric" part of Finno-Ugric is in reference to Hungarian.

hackyhacky 5 hours ago

> since Slavic languages lack articles apart from Sorbian

As far as I know (and as confirmed by Wikipedia [1]), Sorbian does not have articles. Maybe you are thinking of Bulgarian, which does have articles (although the definite article attaches as a suffix to the noun, rather than being an independent word).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbian_languages

nephihaha an hour ago

I read in a book some years ago how some Sorbian speakers had started to use articles under the influence of German, but I've no idea how widespread it was, and I think it's been discouraged during language revival.

I couldn't find much on this online when I searched for it. But did find at least one respectable reference, which agrees with what I remember:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277973156_Unarticul...

Abstract: "Slavonic languages in general do not use articles to indicate (in)definiteness. The development of an article in some of them is the result of language contact. In the case of Sorbian the influence of German led to the use of the demonstrative pronoun ‘this’ and the numeral ‘one’ to indicate definiteness and indefiniteness, respectively. Originally the German system was copied almost without changes, but eventually specific rules developed, subject to phonotactic constraints and restricting the use of the article mainly to intratextual and pragmatic definiteness. The use of the article depended on the kind of text and language (spoken language, Bible translation and original texts, translations from German). Grammatical purism managed to eliminate the use of the article in today’s written variants as well as in most official uses of spoken Sorbian almost completely. In colloquial language and in the dialects, however, the article is very much alive but its use differs considerably from German. There are also differences between Upper and Lower Sorbian, the latter being closer to German usage."

Wikipedia tends to be better on linguistics than some other areas, but best not to become over-reliant on it. This is just one reminder that it does not cover many things.

fonheponho 10 hours ago

My guess: Czech. :)

Native English speakers living for a decade or more in the Czech Republic (and picking up Czech in the process) may experience "retroactive article confusion", they may start to drop articles while speaking their mother tongue English.

devindotcom 10 hours ago

don't worry too much. english is such a muddled tongue to begin with that there are many ways of saying something "correctly" and few if any of us know them all. anyone who quibbles over some fine verbal point is probably not someone whose opinion you should value!

that said I know in business communication this kind of thing can be less forgiving. i will say that grammar and syntax checking for non native speakers is one of the few very beneficial applications of LLMs.

NuclearPM 10 hours ago

Tongue?

scubbo 10 hours ago

In this sense, it's a synonym for "language". Usually used as "mother tongue" (meaning, the language one grew up speaking).

jampekka 10 hours ago

I struggle with it too, but my rule of thumb is that "the" signals the reader they should know what specific instance is referred to, whereas "a" introduces a new instance.

arcbyte 10 hours ago

Just remmeber that "a" is short for "any". So do want the specific thing, or will any thing work?

moritzwarhier 10 hours ago

a specific thing, or is it enough for it to be the thing?

sorry, just joking, this is not meant to be a genuine counterargument^^

I just want one of the new triple-cheese sandwiches please. And the salad of the day as a side.

tandr 10 hours ago

But... "So do you want _a_ specific thing, or will any thing work?" sounds kind of correct as well to me. (Disclaimer: I am not native speaker, grain of salt and all.)

rawling 10 hours ago

It is. Yours is acknowledging that your things are distinguishable and the other person might want one in particular.

GP's should be used when offering a specific one, like "the red one".

lcedp 10 hours ago

If only it were that simple. "I bought a car yesterday" -- Did I buy a specific car?

rimeice 10 hours ago

Yes you bought the car yesterday - it’s the now because it’s established in the conversation.

antonvs 10 hours ago

The point is that in saying "I bought a car", you're not attempting to specify which specific car you bought. The fact that you obviously did buy a specific car isn't relevant to the grammar of this.

If the audience already has some context about which specific car you were going to buy, then you could say "I bought the car yesterday." In that case you're referring to a specific car that the audience is expected to already be familiar with.

I think some of the confusion over this seems to be coming from attempting to apply knowledge that you have to a sentence when the audience wouldn't have that knowledge.

stouset 10 hours ago

You did, but you aren’t specifying which.

“I bought the car” would indicate that you bought a specific one that is jointly understood.

In fact, if you had previously talked about a specific car you were thinking about buying, “I bought a car” would be a strong indicator that you bought a different vehicle than what was discussed.

AndrewDucker 10 hours ago

If there's more than one, and you don't care which one, then it's "a". If you care which one then it's "the".

"Pass me a plate" - any plate will do. "Pass me the plate" - I want the specific plate which we were talking about.

layer8 10 hours ago

That rule isn’t universal though. “I go to the dentist every year” doesn’t imply that I particularly care about a specific dentist (or, case in point, about the specific dentist).

“This was a nice evening” is also difficult to characterize as not caring about which evening it is. As are books titled “An Introduction to XYZ”, where both the authors and the readers will probably care about the specific book.

rawling 10 hours ago

I'm going to the bank, the shop, the dentist, the pool - I have a regular one in mind and you may well also know which one I mean.

I'm going to a bank, a shop, a dentist - I've found a new one and I may well be about to describe it to you.

"A nice evening" - there have been ones before, there hopefully will be again, this was one of them.

layer8 10 hours ago

Sure, but that’s different from “you do/don't care which one”.

shhsshs 6 hours ago

“Care” may not be the correct word, but in those examples the difference is whether you are referring to a specific instance, or any instance of a group. When you say “I went to the doctor,” you did in fact go to a specific doctor (or “I will go to the doctor” meaning you will go to one). It would be equally valid to say “I went to a doctor”, it’s just less specific.

necovek 3 hours ago

I believe it is food for thought — would one ever say "this was the nice evening"?

Here it only sounds OK if you make the adjective stronger ("this was the nicest evening", though you'd probably avoid "nice" in this case and go with "best", "most amazing"...), or drop the adjective altogether ("this was the evening").

So nuance is that you might have many nice evenings, with this being one of — but what if you do not, and all are actually terrible except for this one? I guess with proper pronounciation of "THE nice", it can still work (we already talked about nice evenings and not-nice ones, so it'd be "this was the nice one"), but it'd be pretty awkward.

xigoi 2 hours ago

“At the start of the year, my crystal ball told me that all my evenings this year are going to be bad except for one. This was the nice evening.”

necovek 33 minutes ago

Yes, exactly the example I put in ("the one") — thanks for sharing it and showing it might not even be awkward!

SilasX 9 hours ago

Well, on that note: the construction “I went to the store” has always felt wrong to me as a native speaker. People say it even when that store lacks definiteness in context (ie the listener has no reason to know which one you mean). At the very least, it counts as a separate usage of “the” that doesn’t follow the usual pattern, like when you say “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”.

Edit: Here's a frustrating HN thread where someone tried to claim it makes sense, but it turned out his argument hinged on "well obviously all native English speakers regularly go to some store, right?" Screw the homebound.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32620015

lawsthro0532 8 hours ago

Looking at: https://advice.writing.utoronto.ca/english-language/definite...

I think the usage falls into this group: "The first group consists of nouns which refer to shared knowledge of the situation or context...",

When you're talking to people you live with it is true that they know which store you are going to. Friends and neighbours would have also have known up to fairly recently, when people still mostly walked for groceries and such to the few small stores nearby and made friends with people who lived close.

So, I'd say it's a bit of a colloquial hold over from walking times and construction taking a listener into confidence.

SilasX 3 hours ago

>When you're talking to people you live with it is true that they know which store you are going to.

But again, people use this even when I have no reason to know which store they went to.

I’m not necessarily saying they should stop doing this, but it’s clearly not the usual kind of definiteness implied but the use of “the”.

jacobolus 2 hours ago

It is common for someone to say, for instance, "I need to go to the store" even if they don't have any particular store in mind.

A prescriptivist pedant might insist that this is incorrect, and they should instead say "I need to go to a store", but in my judgment as a native speaker, the version with "the" is more idiomatic, and the version with "a" sounds stilted.

margalabargala 9 hours ago

Beyond that, there are cases where you absolutely are referring to a specific one, but use a/an.

"Our house has a pool" for example. There is a very specific pool being referred to, but it's sufficiently indirect that "the" would never be used here without radically changing sentence meaning.

necovek 3 hours ago

I understand this mostly as "our house is one of a set of houses with pools", which is what anybody cares about in this sentence.

It's like saying "our house has a roof" — very similar, but nobody really cares about the roof, the focus remains on the house.

xigoi 2 hours ago

This doesn’t count because the determination of which house you mean is not based on previous context, but only on the sentence itself.

elendilm 9 hours ago

Maybe it must be considered from the perspective of the speaker. He may have a particular dentist in mind when he says "the dentist" and maybe the listener not having privy to it may not be relevant.

And he may be saying "a" about the word "nice" instead of about the word "evening".

Note: This is just my opinion and an attempt at trying to make sense of it. Purely subjective take as I usually refrain from making purely opinion based arguments.

necovek 3 hours ago

No matter how much we try to make objective statements, they are never based on "full, provable truth", and are thus opinions. Conversing with other humans is exchanging opinions based on their own previous knowledge. Thus no need to — when conversing with non-malicious people — state that your opinion is, in fact, your opinion. I appreciate it for what it is, and if I am curious about the basis for it, I will inquire more.

All of the above is in my opinion, but I never state that and assume a good faith reader will take it as such (here for demonstration purposes only :)).

So in short, thanks for your opinion, and I agree this is the largely the basis for choosing between an indefinite and definite article, also opening them up to inquiry ("I am going to the store" — "oh, which one?"; compare to "I am going to a store" — "what are you getting?").

zdc1 2 hours ago

"I go to the dentist every year" implies that you have a usual dentist or some sort of stable routine or plan vs "I go on a trip every year" which implies the journey is yet to be selected/defined from a multitude of options.

So I feel the rule isn't always taken literally, but the vs a is selected based on whether something is up for consideration/substitution rather than something that's well defined and specified.

kazinator 6 hours ago

Nope! Because "the" also refers to a class/category which is essentially the opposite of indicating a particular member.

For instance, "the bald eagle is native to North America".

There is also "The" in names; The Beatles, The Great Lakes, The Bahamas, The Bronx, ...

The role of "the" depends on context: how was the subject treated in previous sentences in the conversation.

"I see a bald eagle out of the window. The bald eagle is huge!"

In this second sentence, there is no way that "the bald eagle" could refer to the class of bald eagles, because the previous sentence introduces the topic of the sighting of a bald eagle. It refers to that one.

If "the bald eagle is huge" appears out of the blue, not preceded by any discussion of any eagle, that tends to bring in the class interpretation.

I learned the above through Japeanese. A similar thing happens with the は (wa) topic particle; I realized that "the" works in a similar way in that regard.

Sharlin 3 hours ago

That much is obvious and everyone learns it like on the first week of English learning, of course. It’s the various cases where that simple rule doesn’t apply that are difficult.

"I play the piano"

And then there are those cases where you actually use neither!

necovek 3 hours ago

And "There is a piano in the lobby."

red75prime 2 hours ago

This doesn't touch place names. The Hague, Amsterdam, The Maldives, Australia, The Netherlands, France...

lwansbrough 10 hours ago

I was going to start by stating the difference is “a” is unspecific, “the” implies the subject is already known.

However as I thought more about it I realized it gets a little more complicated. I’m not academically studied in English, though I am a native speaker.

For example if you say, “Our town has a castle” - that’s a specific castle but you wouldn’t say “our town has the castle.”

Why? It has to do with what the listener knows. “Definite” means the subject is known to the listener. If I’m introducing a castle into the conversation that you don’t know, I’m talking about _a_ castle. Now that it’s introduced, I can tell you about _the_ castle.

bethekidyouwant 10 hours ago

If there was only one castle then you would save the. For example our town has “the giant duck” (fictional fibreglass statue)

rawling 10 hours ago

I don't know... "What sets your town apart from all the others?" "It had a giant fibreglass duck" also works.

mauvehaus 9 hours ago

We could avoid this issue all together by simply building several giant fiberglass ducks.

mauvehaus 10 hours ago

"Our town has the castle" would mean that of (all the gin joints in) all the towns in all the world, only yours has a castle. Also not academically qualified, also a native speaker.

adastra22 10 hours ago

Not quite.

You use either “a” or “the” when you are specifying a class of things. “Our town has a castle” could be any castle. “Our town has the castle” would be a bit more rare and sounds weird as a general statement, but is valid in certain circumstances. “The castle” here means that the castle is something, or connected to something we have already been discussing and I’m referring to it, so the “our town” must be the new information. Like maybe we are discussing what we should do when you next visit, and I suggest seeing some particular famous tapestries. You say “wait, isn’t that castle [in which the tapestry is displayed] in Edinburgh?” And I reply “no, our town has the castle.”

You don’t use any article at all when what you’re talking about is unique. For example, “our town has Neuschwanstein Castle.”

Edit: or there is something which follows, e.g. “our town has the castle where they filmed Braveheart.”

mauvehaus 9 hours ago

Fair. I was envisioning the statement "our town has the castle" outside of any other qualifying context about the castle. Like a couple of schoolchildren bragging about their towns. "Our town has a racetrack." "Well our town has a castle!"

ahartmetz 10 hours ago

It's because the town has one out of the set of all castles.

You can also say "Our town has the castle", which... now there it gets weird. I think it means it doesn't have much, but it has that. Well I guess it's specific in that it is one of the few (specific) things it has going for it.

kergonath 10 hours ago

> I think it means it doesn't have much, but it has that.

Yeah. I think what happens is that the implied group of things in which the castle belongs changes. "The town has the castle" could be understood as “there is only one castle and the town has it” (the group is that of all castles). But it’s nonsense. Your understanding seems right to me, but I am not a native English speaker. It is something along the lines of “among the things the town has, the only notable one is the castle” (it’s the only castle in the set of things the town has).

What is tricky is that the group in which the castle is unique is implicit.

ahartmetz 9 hours ago

FWIW all that is barely different from German (I'm a German native speaker). These implied groups seem like a nightmare if you have to learn how they work. Since I "just know", I've never had to think about it much.

Native English speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong about the "the castle" example.

MichaelDickens 8 hours ago

I would take "Our town has the castle" to imply that there's a group of towns that collectively only have one castle, and your town is the one that has it.

Compare: "Sacramento is the capital." You could say Sacramento is a capital if the reference group includes Albany, Austin, Tallahassee, etc. Or you could say Sacramento is the capital if the reference group includes Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, etc.

necovek 3 hours ago

Yeah, I think this is the same case as the example above by someone else: "Our house has a pool". I offer "Our house has a roof" as well.

Speaking of the house or town, the important information is what class it belongs to, not the specific castle/pool/roof...

As you point out, "the" will have a very specific, highlighting meaning in that case.

Ekaros 12 minutes ago

"Our town has the castle". Is reasonable for meaning that it has the best/oldest/most historical/largest one. Or in general that the specific castle that has something which separates it from the rest.

Tade0 10 hours ago

It leads to some funny situations.

This one time I was at a company get-together and the CTO, whose son was just born, received some Peppa Pig merch.

I exclaimed (in English) "Peppa Pig is the shit!"

The HR lady stared at me as if I killed her father with an accordion.

rawling an hour ago

They probably still would have given you a funny look if you'd exclaimed "Peppa Pig is a shit".

ccakes 10 hours ago

This reminds me of “en” vs “ett” in Swedish. No rules - just gotta know

mitxela 8 hours ago

Der, die, das!

... den, des, dem. But those are derived from the three bass cases.

stephenhuey 10 hours ago

When I was at Rice a quarter century ago, I took a 300-level linguistics class called Structure of English. Half a dozen of us sat around an oval table in a little room and I was the only one not majoring in linguistics. It was a delightfully geeky bunch. One of the students later worked on speech recognition at Microsoft. The professor was an older tall thin man who always wore suspenders and a bow tie.

I had always been good at grammar in high school, but this was a different world and I had no idea what I was in for. We spent the first two weeks discussing the differences between the and a, and the next two weeks on the differences between this and that, and the rest of the semester felt more abstract. It was quite illuminating for me.

shagie 9 hours ago

Ablaut reduplication is my favorite thing from linguistics. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduplication#English )

Tic-tac-toe. Flip flop. Live, Laugh, Love. Zig Zag.

It's all I-A-O. Switch any of those around and it doesn't sound right.

Learning about the order of adjectives (big old red ball - try swapping any of those around) when I was dabbling in Klingon and the affix contests ( https://klingon.wiki/En/WordplayContest ) of noun suffixes having to be in a certain order ( https://klingon.wiki/En/NounSuffix and https://klingon.wiki/En/RelativeOrderingOfSuffixes ).

rawling an hour ago

> It's all I-A-O. Switch any of those around and it doesn't sound right.

And from this we can extrapolate what flip flops would be called if we had three feet!

Also see https://www.poetryverse.com/spike-milligan-poems/on-ning-nan...

berekuk 10 hours ago

Same here. Every few years I try to go through https://englishpage.com/articles/index.htm to internalize more rules but it doesn't fully stick, and it's the only part of English that makes me self-conscious.

nutjob2 10 hours ago

In programming terms 'a' is followed by a type name and 'the' is followed by a variable name.

nutjob2 10 hours ago

I have the opposite problem. I speak a non-English language (poorly) that hasn't got 'a' or 'the' so I end up shoehorning other words into the sentence to take their place, such as 'one [particular item]' for 'the' and 'some [item]' for 'a'. I likely sound like an idiot when I talk. Non native speakers of English have similar ticks.

But (in)definite articles aren't difficult, you're either talking about some member of a group or class of items without specifying which one (a), or you're talking about one particular example or instance that is being referenced in context (the).

I don't understand how languages can talk about things precisely without them. I guess they just use context, more or other words in their place, or structure sentences differently. English just feels convenient in this case, but obviously I am biased.

bonoboTP 10 hours ago

Even languages that have both indefinite and definite articles use them slightly differently, for example Spanish, German, English and Hungarian have them, but the rules of their use is somewhat different, though the main idea is similar.

It takes time to learn things like "at school" vs "at the school", "to school", "to the school", "I know English", not "I know the English", but "I know the English language" etc. etc. It's obviously easy when you speak it natively, but it just happens to be a certain way and could plausible be in another way too, as other languages show.

nutjob2 9 hours ago

The funny thing is is that all the examples you gave are correct English.

[I learned it] "at school" - I learned it at school, I'm not specifying which school

[I learned it] "at the school" - I learned it at school, the one that was referenced

"I know the English" - I know the English people

"I know the English language" - I know the English language (specifically)

The point being that articles do a lot of work. They're not just decoration whereby there is some arbitrary correct form or rule. It's a matter of what you want to say.

But in the third and forth sentences 'English' is both a collective noun and the name of a language which is just a coincidence.

hackyhacky 4 hours ago

> [I learned it] "at school" - I learned it at school, I'm not specifying which school

> [I learned it] "at the school" - I learned it at school, the one that was referenced

That's not the distinction that the OP is making. If you say "I am at school", it means you are a student, you attend school. If you say "I am at THE school", it means you are physically at the school building, without specifying whether you are a student. Both of those options are different from saying "at a school." See also "prison", "work", "bed". Similar distinction (in UK English, not so much American English) with "in hospital" vs "in the hospital."

As was pointed out, "I go to the dentist every year" doesn't necessarily mean a particular dentist; it just means some dentist, but we use the definite article anyway, because I guess we consider all dentists interchangeable? We don't use definite articles even when we are referring to a specific thing in specific phrases, such as "I went to Florida by [the] car."

Then there's highly idiomatic use of articles with proper nouns. We say "Buckingham Palace" [no article] but "The Washington Monument" [definite article]. We talk about "The Rockies" [definite article] but "Mount Fuji" [no article]. "Germany" but "The United States." Sometimes we use the definite article when referring to to racial or ethnic groups, and sometimes we don't, and that choice can have complicated social implications ("The Blacks", anyone?).

In short, if a native English speaker tells you that article use is straightforward, then they simply have not considered all the cases.

mitxela 8 hours ago

German speakers probably don't understand how English can affect sentence emphasis with strict SVO word order. In German the topic of the sentence comes first and the declension tells you if its S or O.

weinzierl 10 hours ago

I feel you. I live in Germany and we have many people whose mother tongue is a slavic language here and they all get it wrong to some degree.

I'd still like to encourage you to put some energy into getting it right because this mistake is very confusing for native speakers of a language that makes the distinction.

I cannot tell you how often I was listening to someone telling me a story about the thing where I sat impatiently waiting for them telling me which particular thing or person they ment only to realize they were not talking about something particular at all.

necovek 2 hours ago

While I am natively Slavic (Serbian) and my German is abysmal — you've never struggled with me I am sure, as I likely would not try a long story :) — I believe my English is sufficiently good that I run into similar issues with others speaking "improper" English.

But here I find it's mostly about trying to get into their linguistic framework when trying to understand them, and with my background of native Serbian being a very phonetic language, I can easily figure out when someone is coming from a more phonetic background: eg. or pronouncing "j" sound like "y" in "yay", more literal reading of other letters, etc. You obviously expect them to miss out on articles, tenses and even word ordering, so you work it all backwards. A bit like that trick for LLMs with broken, concise English.

So I really put it on me to re-process their language into what is the likely message they are trying to convey, and do not expect the precision of a native speaker.

It is hardest when someone's command of a language seems to be high (eg. they have great pronunciation and decent vocabulary), yet the basics are all wrong :)

And in some cases, it helps to know a bit of their native tongue, like with the Spanish and all of those "e-station" instead of "station", "e-static" instead of "static" (no, not "ecstatic" :), "e-sports" instead of "sports" etc.

ivanbakel 9 hours ago

What's interesting about the replies to this comment how readily people provide post-hoc justifications for language features that often have no essential rhyme or reason. The same is true for the prepositions which accompany verbs, which tend to vary by language, but for which every language's speaker will gladly offer you "rules" or "explanations" for when they fit. It's great evidence that we can be very good at something with no communicable understanding of what it is we actually know.

joquarky 5 hours ago

Usually happens when a person answers a "why" question to something they did without thinking.

TacticalCoder 9 hours ago

> What gets me as a non-native speaker far more than "a vs an" is the "a vs the" conundrum. I still don't quite get when something needs to be "indefinite" and I've been speaking English for close to forty years.

"a vs the" is quite easy IMO.

Most non-native however do not use "that" and "which" properly though. "Give me the floppy disk that is blue" and "Give the floppy disk, which is blue" are two different things.

mitxela 8 hours ago

Nobody says that. "Give me the blue floppy disk"

shoobiedoo 6 hours ago

My wife is Japanese and fluent in English but still almost always mixes up the and a. I think part of the problem is that it just barely sneaks under the radar of a mistake that is bad enough to confuse English first language speakers in everyday use. So theres no impetus to correct it

vlyan 9 hours ago

ditto. I never actually studied English, so I just YOLO the articles most of the time. tenses too, really. whenever I look something up, there are caveats and irregularities, and I give up.

I know, in my heart of hearts, that I sound painfully ESL to proficient native speakers, but they are a minority of a minority, so.

grishka 8 hours ago

As a Russian who's fluent in English, I feel like I ended up learning it mostly by example (Slavic languages lack articles, but we have other fun things for people learning them to trip up on, like cases). But a more general rule seems to be that it's "the" if you can point your finger at that particular thing or rephrase it with "that", otherwise it's "a".

gucci-on-fleek 8 hours ago

There's an episode [0] [1] in a famous Canadian comedy that makes fun of this distinction:

> Brent: Ah, the tax man.

> Drey: A tax man.

> Brent: Pardon?

> Drey: I'm not the tax man, I'm a tax man. Saying the tax man is just a little dehumanizing, thank you very much.

[…]

> Brent: A tax man. And whatever you, don't call him "the tax man." Call him "a tax man" or he kinda goes squirrelly on ya.

> Wanda: Some people are sensitive about article use.

> Brent: About what?

> Wanda: Proper article use. "A" or "an" are indefinite articles. "The" is a definite article. In fact, some people say "the" is "the" definite article.

[…]

> Hank: I know what I'm doing. We get the tax man...

> Brent: A tax man.

> Wanda: Actually, in this case you can say "the" tax man, because you're referring to a particular person.

[0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0546137/

[1]: https://cornergas.fandom.com/wiki/Tax_Man

UltraSane 3 hours ago

You use the word "a" for interchangeable, fungible items and "the" for specific, unique, non-fungible items.

shagie 9 hours ago

It's avoiding two distinct vowel sounds in succession.

Consider other variations of this rule.

In French, one would say "l'hôpital" rather than "le hôpital" because the 'h' is an aspirated breath (try saying "a aspirated" rather than "an aspirated") leading to an initial vowel sound.

In Irish, the word for father is "athair". To say "her father" it becomes "a hathair" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prothesis_(linguistics)

In Turkish, it can be seen with araba (car). "I saw the car" -> "Arabayı gördüm." (note the 'y' to avoid two vowels). Book is kitap and "I saw the book" is "Kitabı gördüm." Which doesn't need the additional consonant sound between the final sound and the "ı".

Whatever language you speak, it likely has some form of this rule.

And other languages have the quirk too (like the "a unicorn" or "a university"). For example, in French there's l’hôtel and l'hôpital. But if you've got the hedge... it's la haie... or even more egregiously, the marmoset is le ouistiti.

usrnm 4 hours ago

> It's avoiding two distinct vowel sounds in succession

That implies that English added a consonant there to avoid double vowels, but it's the other way around: it used to have "n" always, same as other Germanic languages, and then it was dropped to avoid two consonants in a row

Dwedit 3 hours ago

There's also "the" vs "the". As in "the boy ate the apple". First 'the' ends with a schwa sound. Second 'the' ends with 'ee' sound.

Ylpertnodi 3 hours ago

British English speaker: for me, the two 'e's' have the same sound.

The boy The apple.

Though I do say 'thee end'

My Brother says 'barth', I say 'bath'.

IshKebab 2 hours ago

Also native British. I would say "thee apple" would be by far the more common pronunciation in op's example but I probably wouldn't blink if someone said "thuh apple".

hrnnnnnn 2 hours ago

Both schwa for me, native speaker who grew up in Scotland.

IanCal 2 hours ago

Both schwa for me unless I was trying to draw particular attention to the apple and denote it was rather significant.

globular-toast an hour ago

Yeah, these are different for me as a southern Englishman. Languages generally try to avoid glottal stops. French has a lovely system called liaison where a consonant sound will appear to separate two consecutive vowels. In English we like diphthongs so I guess we use this similarly to liaison. Some accents just use glottal stops, though, nay bother.

eviks 2 hours ago

Interesting analysis

> [LLM It doesn’t need to be clean or maintainable. It only needs to be correct

But correctness is precisely the issue with LLMs?

But also

> I would’ve spent more time on the trie simplification algorithm and less time on parsing cmudict and re-learning d3.js.]

You could've spent nothing on D3 because the result is bad/poorly readable - much worse than a simple table alphabetically-aligned interception table, which I could use to answer curious questions such as "how can I compare "A" and "O" in terms of exceptions? or "which letter has the most exceptions"?")

(and the blue color is out of place, vowel/consonant split should visually be the same "category", not black/colord. Red for exceptions is fine)

mh-cx 3 hours ago

Non-native speaker here. To me in spoken language both "unicorn" and "hour" have a combination of 2 vowels in the beginning. Let me transcribe them as "ee-oo" and "aa-oo" here.

Why is the aa-oo combination at the beginning of "hour" considered a vowel but the ee-oo in "uniform" is a consonant?

dbalatero 3 hours ago

To me, the ee-oo sound feels more like a Y in my mouth. However if I really draw out the word slowly it feels like ee-oo. But in practice it feels like Y.

ryankrage77 2 hours ago

I didn't get the unicorn thing either, but it's explained better in the longer post (https://www.redblobgames.com/x/2635-a-vs-an/). Unicorn is pronounced starting with a sound like 'you', which starts with a consonant.

__david__ 2 hours ago

I would transcribe the first sound of “unicorn” as “yoo“. It’s almost ee oo but the ee isn’t voiced—it starts right at the transition between those which is what the Y sound is.

IanCal 2 hours ago

Uniform starts with a y sound and hour has a w sound after the first a - aw ur.

throwawayk7h 10 hours ago

I'm always curious why sometimes I pronounce the as /ðə/ ("thuh") and sometimes as /ði/ ("thee"). I don't really know what governs this but I expect it's the presence of a vowel at the start of the following word. However, only some vowels. Does anyone have an answer?

devindotcom 10 hours ago

I do this too - "thee actual" vs "thuh real" and such. I do expect it's to do with having a vowel sound of a certain kind at the beginning of the next work making you move your tongue in a certain way.

rizonio 10 hours ago

with "the actual" I imagine you're also putting in a kind of intrusive "y" sound so it flows better into the vowel

devindotcom 7 hours ago

yep although I don't think it sounds too intrusive. it comes out as theeyactual while the alternative would the thuh.Actual with a sort of micro-accent on the A. I'm sure linguists have names for all these things, like when the movements of the tongue and mouth incidentally form phonemes!

CoastalCoder 10 hours ago

I grew up in New England.

My experience is that "thuh" is basically a lazy / informal pronunciation of that word.

But it's also by far the most common pronunciation. "Thee" would sound strangely hyper-formal, at least in my circles.

Edit: the sibling comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49770609) also rings true to me.

stackghost 10 hours ago

> However, only some vowels

Pretty sure it’s all vowels isn’t it?

“Thee”: apple, evening, island, offer, underpass

“Thus”: any other words where you don’t need to avoid a glottal stop to differentiate the word.

stackghost 5 hours ago

I realized long after the edit window expired that autocorrect changed it to “thus”.

throwawayk7h 3 hours ago

Hmm... I think an /u/ ("oo") triggers "thuh" for me, as in "the ubermensch." But that might just be my idiolect.

drnick1 10 hours ago

This is governed by the following word. "Thee" can also be used for emphasis anywhere.

weinzierl 10 hours ago

The official rule I learnt in my English (as foreign language) classes is vowel = thee and consonant = thuh. That's it.

But I noticed that native speakers deviate from this at least in two cases:

1. Use thee to emphasize the following noun

2. When searching for the noun to say, they often get it wrong because they say something like "uh, thee, thee, thee, uh, book" and never sweat it.

Source: I watched a lot of Monty Python as a kid and John Cleese does this all the time.

jwrallie 9 hours ago

People taught me the a/an rule based on the vowel, but never taught me about this, probably because at school, the emphasis is on grading on the written language.

I just noticed that I do this change in pronunciation without even (and ever) noticing it, which is how I like to approach learning these rules, by pure exposure.

subarctic 7 hours ago

It's similar to a/an, thuh is before a consonant and thee is before a vowel. And thee is also used for emphasis. But some people use a / thuh before a vowel. Do you have an example?

throwawayk7h 3 hours ago

Hmm... I think it might be speed. I'll say "thuh apple" if I'm speaking slowly, and "thee apple" if I'm speaking quickly. Which is strange, because "thee apple" sounds more formal to me, yet it's what I default to only when speaking quickly.

namenotrequired 3 hours ago

I learned English as a second language and was taught it was thee before vowel sounds and thuh before consonants. Is it wrong?

Rendello 8 hours ago

Starting earlier today, I've been using Firefox's local translation feature to auto-translate every page to Italian (to learn). I just had to remove English from my language list and check an option to translate English to Italian.

Firefox's local translation is pretty decent but not amazing. It did render this article's title as "Italiano: A vs. An", which I found pretty funny.

penguin_booze 2 hours ago

If pay attention to some americans speaking, you'll notice that they find it hard when and where to use 'an' vs. 'a'. You'll hear things like 'a example', 'a understanding' etc. English is hard (for some).

vbernat 5 hours ago

"anorack" is a specific spell checker to tell if we need "a" or "an". It uses espeak to decompose a word into phonemes.

MathMonkeyMan 4 hours ago

Is it "a LLM" or "an LLM"?

More generally, do you choose the article as if the first letter of the initialism were pronounced or as if the first word of the initialism were pronounced? Does it differ with acronyms? Does it differ between the UK and America?

mholt 4 hours ago

an, because the spoken sound of "LLM" starts with a vowel, "el". So, pronunciation of first letter of initialism, when you're spelling the initialism. I think.

crossroadsguy 4 hours ago

an LLM, an MP, an FBI agent, a CIA agent, a NASA engineer, an NSA mechanic, an 8 year old car, a 10 year old dog, et cetera – it's the sound of how you said those letters, always the sound.

MathMonkeyMan an hour ago

Also [a history vs. an history][1].

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/comments/1ssrby/an_history_...

nivertech 2 hours ago

  “a San Francisco startup” /ə ˌsæn frənˈsɪskoʊ ˈstɑɹtˌʌp/
  vs
  “an SF startup” /ən ˌɛsˈɛf ˈstɑɹtˌʌp/
i.e. you have to mentally pronounce the phrase before choosing which form of the indefinite article to write

tarkin2 3 hours ago

He says he should have used an LLM to write his one-off code

I guess this is a common idea now

Yet since a lot of our coding is for one-offs then we are allowing LLMs to blunt our skills

hiccuphippo 4 hours ago

So is it "a historic" or "an historic"? I've heard Stephen Colbert use "an historic" with a non-silent H.

Dwedit 3 hours ago

Comedians often make jokes.

n4r9 2 hours ago

Yes, this is an exception to the rule in British English, although possibly old-fashioned and becoming obsolete. Some British people put "an" before any word starting with "h" and longer than three syllables.

EDIT I'm wrong here - I don't think anyone ever says "an Halloween celebration" for example. But I was sure there were other "h" counterexamples than historic.

IshKebab 2 hours ago

This is a common overcorrection. It's 100% "a historic" if you're pronouncing the "h" (which everyone does).

People who say "an historic" are wrong - they're imagining there's some exception that there isn't.

You can easily tell they're wrong because who says "an history lesson"?

kzrdude 22 minutes ago

"a history lesson" and "an historic event" have different stress in the history area (or at least they can have, depending on the phrase context), and I think that explains it.

Saying "a historic event" requires you to pause and stress the start of historic (a + glottal stop + "his" + ...). It's a natural phrasing pattern to have the initial part of historic unstressed, and then the h is effectively dropped even if you're not speaking an h-dropping dialect; this way "an historic event" follows as correct.

We simplify a lot of sounds in unstressed parts of words, but because we know and "see" the spelling, our brains can keep the illusion of the whole word going for us.

jeroenhd 20 minutes ago

> because who says "an history lesson"?

People speaking dialects that don't pronounce the "h" in "history". Which used to be a lot more common when this rule was written down. I've heard several English dialects that pronounce "historian" like "istorian", and who would say "a istorian"?

English is full of obscure rules that were written down ages ago, often because one particular guy wrote down his personal preference and others accepted it as fact ("less" vs "fewer", for instance).

English speakers still can't agree whether the h in "herb" is pronounced or not. I don't see why anyone would be surprised that other words beginning with h are also subject to debate.

IshKebab 3 minutes ago

> if you're pronouncing the "h" (which everyone does).

You can say "an 'istoric", but that's not what we're talking about. The overcorrection is "an historic".

That also isn't specific to "historic", for example you can say "an 'ouse" but literally nobody says "an house".

KaiserPro an hour ago

for ESL people, its both.

For english people, as in actual english not from the UK, its a historic, unless its for emphasis.

There is/are some religious overtones, that are infused into this. Catholics used to (or still do) say "hay-tch" for h, where as non-Catholic would say "ay-tch". However that distinction is not so acute in england(unless you're in/near liverpool), but it might be in scotland and its certainly there in NI

xelxebar 6 hours ago

The one that gets me is when people use "a" with initialisms, e.g. "She drives a RV," just sounds off to me. she can do her thing but I drive an RV.

That said, I think the former might be more common these days, so arguably the rules might just differ between written an spoken English in some dialects.

joquarky 5 hours ago

When people get this wrong, ask them to spell it out phonetically. We sometimes forget that our language is more based on sound than sight.

An arrvee.

litoE 4 hours ago

But I bet she drives a Recreational Vehicle instead of an Recreational Vehicle.

namenotrequired 3 hours ago

I once wrote “an FAQ” and someone corrected me that it should be “a FAQ”. Turns out she pronounced it “fak” and not “ef ay cue”

Ylpertnodi 3 hours ago

As a 'fak', pronounce, eff ay queue' is far too long.

mauvehaus 10 hours ago

Fun fact an adder (snake) was once a nadder, and an apron was on a napron. This fun fact brought to you by The History of English Podcast.

https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/

Happily sourced in Wikipedia so I don't have to figure out which episode I learned that from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder <- see below the table in Taxonomy.

adzm 10 hours ago

And cherries were ceries from French, leading to the singular form cherry. Lots of neat little things like this.

Tagbert 4 hours ago

And peas was both singular and plural like fish.

"I ate a single peas" "I ate many peas"

People thought it was a mistake and generated "pea" for a new singular.

hrnnnnnn 2 hours ago

Swedish does a similar thing where it takes the plural of an English word as the singular Swedish loanword.

Kex = biscuit, from "cakes"

Keps = hat, from "caps"

dearjames 10 hours ago

This reminds me of the multiple AI videos out there that I have to involuntarily listen to because people hate using earphones/headphones. They just start off like "The man/woman blah blah blah", and my poor brain is always noting that's bad English/grammar or whatever because What man/woman are you talking about? Where did he/she come from in this story that you just started telling?

schoen 8 hours ago

It could be a gimmick to grab attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res

Lots of novels start off with "the gardener put down the gun" or "the elephant was never recovered" or "the money was meant to be in the shoebox" or something as a way of arousing the reader's curiosity, or making the reader feel like an active participant in some larger story that's already underway, even though this is technically bad pragmatics in the sense that it isn't cooperating with the reader's assumed desire to understand the context of the utterance.

In turn, perhaps some AI systems have learned this trick as a way of increasing engagement, even though it can feel manipulative.

jan_m_savage 5 hours ago

Every language has its own quirks. In Chinese, you don't have this a/an difficulty, but the grammatical tenses are so fluid that a lot of contextual cues are needed to make sense whether "I went" [zoule 走了] means I really went in the past, or I am going now (ignoring the semantic diff as well, since zou also means to pass away).

samus 3 hours ago

A more natural way to see it is that Chinese does not really have tenses in the first place.

jan_m_savage 2 hours ago

Actually, it does, it's just not so fixed about them.

For instance: "I have gone", "I had gone" are said the same way, but there is a slight difference when you say "I have been going" and there is really no way to say "I had been going" unless contextual tokens are added onto.

YoshiRulz 9 hours ago

For anyone interested in getting "more 9s" from the heuristics and then building something useful with it, come join us at https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Z32314

tikhonj 4 hours ago

One fun thing is that some words can reasonably go either way: "a hotel" vs "an hotel" or "a SQL query" vs "an SQL query".

wizzledonker 4 hours ago

For me, only “a hotel” and “an SQL query” sound correct here

(Edit: I just realised this might be a dialect thing. I say “ess cue ell” and not “sequel”, and “hoe tell” rather than “otel”. Australian accent)

crossroadsguy 4 hours ago

Luckily zed and zee won't flip the article.

crossroadsguy 4 hours ago

a ho.tel

an oh.tel or o.tel (is it still spoken somewhere like this?)

The confusion arrives for words like "herb" depending upon whether the place uses F or C for temperature ;-)

at1as 4 hours ago

english is my second language, but I learned it early enough that I didn't have to study the rules (and it more or less replaced my mother tongue).

Years later a friend who was learning english asked me the difference between "a" and "an" and I realised I had no idea. I know when to use each, but not the rule governing why.

Fascinating how different the experience learning a language can be when do you explicitly, through learning the structure and rules, versus via immersion where you know what's right, but perhaps not why.

Semaphor 3 hours ago

> but not the rule governing why.

Be glad you didn’t have to learn German, our grammatical gender only has more exceptions than rules.