OpenJev (openjev.com)

Berkshire got it right a long time ago.

https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/

I see you've edited your comment to remove the part about the vibecoded website being disrespectful towards humans. As a human I find these types of comments about the vibecoded websites, when the submission is not about the website, disrespectful.

Do you have anything to say about OpenJev, which is not about the website?

I.. kind of like it? Aware that it isn't great and that I'm in the minority.

I had to re-read a few times to figure out what the site was for and about. Still not sure I understand but that's the problem for them. If I'm a customer, I'm gone cause I can't figure out what it's for and I see this far too often nowadays for a lot of technical sites.

What’s really hilarious is that there’s an “un-slop site” button that does absolutely nothing to un-sloppify the site

It's nice to see some variation in websites. Makes each one feel so special.

The unslopify toggle is pretty funny though lol

AI output right now is like a final exam essay response from an anxious student. Instead of being edited for focus and clarity, it's anti-edited to cram in as many details as possible. Instead of worrying that the reader might get bored or confused, it assumes that the reader has no choice but to read the whole thing, even if they get a headache. It doesn't care about picking the most useful perspective on a problem; it cares about covering every possible angle that a grader might use to dock points from it.

It's basically the work you get from a smart, diligent person who is oblivious to any shared goal and approaches every assignment with a CYA attitude.

The irony here being:

- the "vibecoded site" was not vibecoded.

- when you turn "vibecoded off" on this vibecoded site, you get standard Claude slop

Nasty little site, between that and pretending LLMs are the same as Jev.

Gonna need these people to at least prefix their prompts with "You are Edward Tufte and have an allergy to chartjunk".

> These one shot vibecoded sites are always a complete visual headache.

Sure, but have you seen the Typesafe.ai site itself? I think this is meant as a homage.

There's a "unsloppify site" toggle on top but the unsloppified version looks exactly as vibe coded as the regular one.

I love how the 'unsloppify' button changes the theme but nothing else, and also messes with the layout enough that you can't actually toggle it without scrolling and repositioning your cursor.

And yet, it makes the front page of HN. The bar is low.

There is an "Unsloppify site" button which makes it a bit better.

I'm not sure which version is the "unsloppified" one, perhaps it's derived from https://github.com/AlexSchmalex97/The-Nothing-Button

I'm soon going back to pure html, jesus christ

This is very interesting! Seems like a promising direction.

I wonder though if it supports the same claims as Jev: answers are not impacted by other answers to the same questions, nor the existance of other questions? It seems by sharing KV cache all questions will be visible. And I think the diffusion causes the answers to attend to eachother?

Also I think without fine-tuning we can not say that the probabilities it output are actually probabilities. Maybe fine tuning using Brier scoring would do the trick?

Maybe some kind of hierarchical structure of the KV cache can make questions independent, and with smaller diffusion canvas’ generated in batch can be a way to make answers generate independently?

This PR is interesting but it's making the assumption that what Jev has done is based on a diffusion model or that a diffusion model is superior for this work. Which may or may not be the case.

If I understand it though it does mean you can evaluate a bunch of questions simultaneously, which is an advantage.

Also: While I think it's expected/normal to see LLM-generated programs... there's a lot of LLM written comments in that PR, which is sad to see. Auto-human.

DebertaV3's architecture and noising should be even better as a basis because it had a couple inductive biases (cross encoder, disentangled attention and RTD corruptions) that enabled it to have unmatched weight performance ratio on such tasks.

My gut tells me that a better approach to a calibrated 0-shot classifier than shoehorning DiffusionGemma would be starting from another gemma, T5GemmaV2. Take its encoder and do continual training on an RTD objective and a large relational synthetic data mix. Then finetuning (multi-annotator data will help calibration) on as many proper NLI datasets as possible. That still lacks the DebertaV3 disentangled attention's inductive bias, however.

Jev also has its calibrated predictions component which is important. Temperature scaling is probably the easiest first pass. But there's lots of sensible options to improve on that.

ModernBERT might be the easier, more stable starting point than T5Gemma though.

Today, he released Laya, a model based on his paper: https://github.com/NandhaKishorM/laya

in short: it's faster, cheaper, smart structured output.

each "question" is answered in parallel instead of a sequential (like an LLM). so if you have an input like:

    {"is_it_hotdog": noul, "is_it_apple", noul}

it answers is_it_hotdog and is_it_apple in parallel and gives a probability.

It's a non-instruction-tuned classifier model trained on a confidence-aware RL variety that generates its own schema and follows it, with a confidence score output. Think BERT on crack, smart enough to be used as a decision maker (conceptually). They call it "not an LLM" because it's non-generative but of course it's a language model in the same way all non-instruction-tuned classifiers are.

I'm in the middle of moving my app to openAI structured output.

Could you please explain what you mean by "which everyone moved on from"?

Jev is, as far as I understand, essentially very optimised for zero shot classification [0]. Something like BERT could be and has been tuned to provide similar "decision making" at a similar latency and cost advantage quite some time back. Advantage over full on LLMs is mainly the efficiency and of something like Jev over e.g. the encoder/decoder based classifier I had in front of an LLM to route to different prompts depending on the users likely needs, that Jev does perform at a more consistent level, allegedly roughly akin to GPT-5.6 Terra, but at the lower cost and latency. Currently testing that, but seems promising, if Jev classifies at or above Terra level, I see no reason not to leverage it.

Can add that I tried using a heavily pruned mt0 based model for structured classification along with structured output for local tagging and simple renaming suggestions. While it does work, the balance is hard to get right for the machine I was targeting as a minimum spec (Macbook Neo), so that's on ice. Focusing on one of the tasks easily goes below 100mb with solid latency across all EU Latin script languages, but the second you add a few, it's simply not in the quality budget, so while LLMs can do anything Jev and similarly focused models can, it comes at a literal cost. Could maybe accomplish the goal with multiple models (BERT+mt0+...), but that get messy.

In general just happy to see a bit of the millions flooding into the industry being used to improve on less flashy but immensely useful solutions. It's amazing that you can technically use LLMs for most tasks, but not every org has a near infinite budget and there is still a lot to gain from applying more recent learnings to old solutions along with just updating their training data to the current year. Also makes business sense, competition on frontier or mid-tier LLMs is vicious, focusing on an underserved niche with clear application is clever.

[0] https://huggingface.co/tasks/zero-shot-classification

In Jev you pass options in the input and its output just gives some probability for each. Oai structured output just follows a schema. The exact output is still generated and there is no probability

No idea at all what this particular project called openjev is doing, but https://github.com/TheoLeeCJ/openjev and https://github.com/ekzhang/openjev-sglang (neither of which I have any relation to) generate a single token, rather than JSON structured output. I wrote up this technique here: https://sgnt.ai/p/jev/

you're not alone

As a designer; only slightly. I'm not there to be blown away by awesome design.

For me it's a bit like with some of the LLM prose - uncanny valley territory.

This one is so much better than the vast majority of sites though?

Clear and to the point. Not even a cookie popup (which ni user respectable site needs, so super low bar to clear).

If you meant the text then I agree.

People rushing to throw a thing out into the world, rushing so much that they don't even bother to use it or look at it themselves.

The same people who are likely seeing tens of the same sort of pages and immediately closing them because "who cares".

I mean I guess I'm looking at this too. But at this point the most interesting projects in the world to me are ones with bad CSS.

Same. I can’t really put my finger on what exactly is turning me off though. I mean, apart from the obvious AI-generated text.

Maybe I am conditioned, but I found it nice and clean.

It's not just you.

I appreciate a nice brutalist aesthetic like this tbh. It’s also good that there’s a baseline for quality in terms of layout and spacing and contrast and whatnot usually, so the HN webshit meta conversation has shifted from that to whinging about an LLM making it.

The overall arrangement and useless shit LLMs put in the copy is often annoying though.

The problem is the overabundance of text, they can’t let it breathe. Everywhere has to be filled up with bits of hardly-relevant text.

I don’t mind the generic dark themed LLM ones even if they all look the same but this particular block looking one is not my fav

Cannot speak for all website, but this one is bad. I was clicking on some text thinking they were tabs or buttons, not the best UX

Isn't this one mimicking the typesafe ai horror website ?

Unsolvable problem.

Why was the aesthetic standard to be pale when workers worked the fields and royals were inside, but tan when workers moved into factories and only the rich could afford to go on a beach vacation?

Aesthetic standards are formed by association. Its why sites that are "well designed" but obviously just use a squarespace or wix template feel so cheap. Why millenial flannel went from hip to standard to outdated. Why purple was the color of royalty before we could synthesize the pigment.

Having good design is about associations. Whatever design LLMs will default to, it will always feel cheap because we will learn over time that that design means cheap. Having good taste is about being ahead of the curve. An LLM cant be ahead of the curve because then that becomes the standard, and theres a new ahead.

You can use LLMs to make novel looking websites by carefully telling it to add certain details, use certain elementd, etc. At that point youve looped back to being a graphic designer.

i dont see it visually, but the text on the page reads like the model is bending over backwards to comply with the prompt. i have that same voice on my website too and i am going to get rid of that text asap.

Mainly cause you never know what you’re getting. Over time, we trained our minds to believe that a well put site = effort, so at the very least people behind it cared. Now, it takes zero effort to make a site look good. So appearance in general means even less. In fact, now a poorly put together site might mean someone cared, wrote it by hand, flaws and all, to give you the human to human experience.

If there is a silver lining in all this, this might get us to appreciate the flaws in all humans, heck even yearn for them.

Yes, it's overly generic and provokes negative feelings in me, only.

People say as much for AI generated images? They're alien intelligence with still some IQ challenges. Their behaviors therefore cause uncanny valley response. Nothing strange about that.

... one thing I'm noticing about negative reactions towards AI generated data is that older folks seem more lenient, appreciative, or even enthusiastic about them for some reason. Kids hate it. Young artists, vehemently so. Which is opposite of how technologies usually work, and that's a bit weird.

I find your comment off-putting. I think it's a great example of bikeshedding. Do you have anything to say about OpenJev the project, or just the bikeshed?

In the future I imagine we won't even visit websites anymore. We'll tell our own LLMs to visit the website and summarise it with information the LLM knows is relevant to us.

Even when I'm interested and invested into the topic, somehow I just zone out and can't force myself to read it or read it with comprehension. Be it a website or a PR, there's just something to it that if it's more than a few sentences of it I just can't.

There must be a name to this phenomenon and I surely can't be the only one?

Because "Make a website" (however more sophisticated the prompt might be) is not a path to knowing what to put on the website, what the personality of it should be, what the hierarchy of information should be, etc.

Sprinting to a finished-looking result at step 1 gives you the illusion that these decisions were considered, but even the casual observer quickly concludes that the page has 3000 words yet nothing to say.

Worse is better, apparently it is finally dead.

Yes, and when they contain pithy little mic-drop LLM phrases they're intolerable. But I'll still take them over marketing department scrollslop.

"... such a different approach where you have to be specific about what you want and which options are open" --- back to where we started ...

I think this is because the approach isn't that different the mentality was. Encoder only classification isn't new. General encoder only classification isn't new. Gliner2 was something similar for parsing. But what they did is provide a new way to look at a sub-class of problems. They opened a lot of people's eyes, including my own, to the demand for applications in this subsection of the market.

But once you have the mental shift, everything else has been done before. So it's not super hard to build something similar for your own use case.

I'm working on something from a crappy laptop, those numbers from jev can totally be matched:

    Local Latency: 0.1813 seconds

There's also prior art. Or probably, anyways.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1wijo3e/i_liter...

Not only is it replicable as you say, things like it already exist(ed).

The important bit of course is in the actual implementation: a) models fine tuned to produce good results for these types of questions and b) runtimes optimized to do this quickly and at scale

There's no benchmarking because it's not very intelligent at all. Right now everybody's being hype-shotted into believing you can use it for intelligent decisions.

https://backnotprop.com/blog/jev-poker/

Jev uses a different training architecture called RLCF (Reinforcement Learning from Calibrated Decisions) vs the traditional RLHF that most TF models use.

So at the end of the day the groundbreaking work wasn't the model itself inherently but the way it was trained and then the way the harness interacts with it.

So this demo here is showing the harness side of things afaict but then TypeSafe's Jev takes it a step further via a specific training regimine.

It's essentially taking output schemas as we've been using them and applying them to specific classification tasks. So not using them to generate structured content which incorporates generated text, but using them to generate structured content which includes classification and/or rankings of the requests made.

So in a lot of cases when we've used LLMs as a classification hack, we've burned a ton of tokens in reasoning and output that we didn't really need to use to interpret the final result. (And I'll just say that we may not have needed all of the output tokens, but that incorporating assessment along with scoring seems to provide more accurate results.)

This goes beyond just asking an LLM to assign an arbitrary number to a particular concept, which in most cases distributes less-than-correct statistically, although that didn't stop us from considering LLM as a judge to be a viable strategy.

So this basically gives us a different class of model to use when classification or decision making is the only need. It doesn't replace any of the narrative if you still need that. Coupled with the higher speed and lower cost, that's why everyone's excited about it.

Anecdotal: LLMs like the hallucinate things and did a poor job of determining when to leave things null/blank. A more structured approach with confidence ratings helps resolve.

As far as I understand:

1) it's very fast (they claim 40-200x faster than frontier models [1], would roughly line up with it doing diffusion)

2) each answer carries a calibrated probability (ie. frequency of outcome is close to predicted)

Another point being that it doesn't reason, hence designed for "System One" tasks.

I wonder if in continuous control with discrete actions (eg. their DOOM demo) it can make sense to blend answer by confidence instead of taking the argmax.

[1] https://typesafe.ai/blog/introducing-system-one-models-and-j...

LLMs are generalized token predictors. They generate. Jev is a generalized classifier. It does not generate. It computes probabilities, REALLY fast.

So inputs and outputs of LLMs are tokens. Inputs to Jev are state (arbitrary strings/tokens) and, depending on the type of query, either an assertion, options, or choices. (All of those are also arbitrary strings/tokens). Outputs from Jev are probabilities. If it's an assertion, the probability that it is true. For options and choices, it's probabilities for each one, basically.

Because Jev answers so quickly and inexpensively, it's a likely replacement for complex, best-effort functions like `isSpam()`, where up until now the only nondeterministic way of implementing that was an LLM, which is slow, costly, and may produce invalid/corrupt output.

It might be conceptually similar to a single-output-token LLM (sort of). LLMs output next-token probabilities. You can ask LLMs to output yes/no, or to output only a color, or only a digit or something like that.

In this case I would imagine that they probably embed your input data into a vector space, and they embed your questions/outputs into another space, and manage to predict probabilities/classes/scores for your outputs very quickly. Embedding the output classes/questions into a vector spaces gives you something you can reuse across runs cheaply, as opposed to an LLM where you can prefill the KV cache but this is an expensive operation in terms of memory.

Basically it's: skip decode, just do prefill then do some measurements. That's the crude description anyways.

And prefill is way faster on GPU type hardware.

Depends on what the model believes about the prevalence of self-driving / autonomous-agent-driven cars at the time the last human on Earth remains (and how much these agents would care about a "closed" highway status, and who exactly it's closed by and for). This estimate can differ very widely. I'd be curious if the results would change if the scenario explicitly specified that this is specifically an alternative history scenario where the last human remains after the rest of humanity was wiped out in some nuclear apocalypse back in the 20th century, before any possibility of all the autonomous stuff.

Your question makes me think of the last scene in the movie Night of the Comet.

Real Jev:

Context: You are the last human on earth on the side of a closed highway. You wish to reach the other side.

Questions: { "q1": { "type": "choice", "instructions": "Do you cross the road?", "criteria": { "Yes": "Yes, cross the road.", "No": "No, don't cross the road" } } }

Answer: Yes 83% No 17% Confidence: 67%

Reported as: jev-latest, 162ms generation time

AskJeeves really was ahead of its time with its name and branding.

Why some people keep mentioning this? Isn't LLMs trained and output copyrighted and trademarked content?

well that didnt take long now its: "Independent research project. Formerly called OpenJev. Not affiliated with or endorsed by TypeSafe. No infringement is intended."

the models will come. or be fine tuned

I'm not sure anybody but people inside the company know if the model itself is a contribution. There's no publication and no architectural details. There's no benchmarks or comparisons published. You can do all of the things they claim with an LLM, not that I think that's what they did.

Likely they have some encoder (eg ModernBERT) trained to do late interaction or latent states along the lines of ColBERT, Perceiver IO or poly-encoders.

Corporate artifcactory? Ask your IT team?

Just verified with the "real" Jev: that gave a probability of 84% that it would land on a 1, with 83% confidence within 62ms.

I think so, yes.

However, it might have fewer restrictions than a BERT and/or is smarter (whatever that means).