This resonates so much. I had a similar feeling after going to my very first operations research lecture. Solving seemingly incomprehensibly complex problems by framing them as a bunch of simple constraints and getting a solution seemed like such magic.
Solving the Jane Street reverse engineering challenge (jestoph.com)
ctippett 5 days ago
darksaints 5 days ago
Many people say that the way to tackle a hard problem is to break it down into smaller problems. I disagree. The best way to tackle a hard problem is to break it down into a defined search space and as many seemingly-redundant constraints as you can possibly list, then dump it all into a solver, go take a nap for a few hours or possibly a month, then come back to the problem solved for you.
chamomeal 5 days ago
vismit2000 4 days ago
mdritch 5 days ago
kachnuv_ocasek 5 days ago
mdritch 5 days ago
Question: Can one or another of those thresholds in sibling or parent nodes ever be met if some number of the samples are below some floor reading? Or, how many zeros does it take to silence a threshold check on the node itself, a sibling, or a parent?
To make this tractable I have tried gridding fit parameters, freezing randomness, and using simplified algs like original Metropolis-Hastings
xvilka 5 days ago
karelpeeters 5 days ago
anitil 5 days ago
It's a moderately technical and (hopefully) entertaining run through of the process. I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed doing the challenge (though, as you'll read, it was also quite a frustrating process). My github is on the post if you were interested in seeing a bit more in detail what my solution looked like, though I intend to write some follow up posts that are a bit more in the weeds of the solution. And frankly, the code I used is pretty ugly but it got the job done.
This is my first blog post, so if you have any feedback please let me know. All the writing, all the code was done by me, by hand, in vim.
[0] https://blog.janestreet.com/can-you-reverse-engineer-an-asic...
vzcx 5 days ago
You can install librelane to get the whole open silicon tool suite and the sky130 PDK. Circuit extraction can be done with magic. Going from a spice netlist to verilog netlist is pretty mechanical and not a hard transform to write. You almost immediately have something that can be simulated and a good baseline for further reversing.
__atx__ 5 days ago
So that was the missing part for me! I did it from scratch (with custom Python script with gdstk and shapely) (the GDS file does have the cells annotated, so not a big problem but still). I was thinking about scripting the "trace net" tool in klayout but decided that's going to probably bring its own can of worms...
vzcx 5 days ago
I'd like to do a full writeup but haven't had the time.
anitil 5 days ago
That's very kind of you. At some point I had put so much of myself in to it that I was in too deep and the only was out was to keep digging.
I'll take a look at librelane thanks!
NamTaf 5 days ago
As for what to do next, I used to spend way too much of my late-2000s time on puzzle hunts (particularly the Melbourne Uni one [1]) and this tickled the same part of my brain. Unfortunately they're no longer a thing, but it definitely sounds like you'd enjoy something similar.
gjm11 5 days ago
__atx__ 5 days ago
Very cool seeing someone completely naive going into this :)
If you want to read more about a bit more... cheaty way to do this, I have written about using formal verification machinery to straight up force the solution out of the netlist here: https://atx.name/electronics/asic-re/ . Could be a bit of an infohazard, but I think journey is the goal and yours was certainly more educational :)
anitil 5 days ago
I should add I have an EE degree (but have never worked as an EE), so even though I don't know industry standards like this sky130 thing, it's not completely foreign to me.
sota_pop 4 days ago
make3 4 days ago
Curiosity is good but maturity is trusting that the problem will get hard at some point anyways, that improving the most efficient way is usually also interesting and is more likely to deliver desired things on time or at all, which can be a big deal if what you're trying to deliver it worth it, like.. a new MRI machine that detects new types of cancers, etc.
If you don't care about what you're trying to deliver, that's another problem that requires at least some questioning, though I understand people have families to take care of etc.
vzcx 5 days ago
pgn 4 days ago
This is the route I ended up going! I posted my own writeup here: https://pradyun.net/blog/reverse_engineering.html
optimisticestim 2 days ago
swiftcoder 5 days ago
_false 5 days ago
bluGill 5 days ago
Now if he is presenting his tools as a good way to solve this problem, something you should use, or any such - that would be a bad thing. Good tools for this are complex and need to be done as part of a large team. If good tools that others should use is the goal then he should join some other group making those tools. I'm sure there is an existing open source project (maybe KiCAD - I'm not in this space so that is the only name I can come up with but maybe their goals are different?) that does this and would welcome more help.
BalistaCRATZ 5 days ago
Also, yosys has support for doing “assertion checking”, which I used in my solution: https://sunaabh.com/systems/2026/08/18/jspuzzle.html
aavshr 5 days ago
It should be `/img/two-stars.png` instead it's right now `/img/two-starts.pgn`.
For those interested in the image itself: https://jestoph.com/img/two-stars.png
hosel 5 days ago
anitil 4 days ago
ngriffiths 5 days ago
The neural net engineering challenge was so awesome, I got really into it, spent way too much time and then was shocked when I actually managed to solve it. Since then I've gotten interested in... hardware. God help me
AlDante2 5 days ago
just for info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDSII will tell you about the GDS format. It apparently stands for Graphic Data System II (originally developed by Calma in the late 1970s).
anitil 5 days ago
anonymousDan 5 days ago
vzcx 5 days ago
karelpeeters 5 days ago
I also briefly wrote about my approach here, with less pictures but going into slightly more detail about how to convert circuits to z3 equations: https://gist.github.com/KarelPeeters/dba417c2690cf0505ac9079...
anitil 5 days ago
karelpeeters 5 days ago
I'm not actually using formal verification at $DAYJOB, there we're using MILP solvers (which are closely related to SAT solvers) as part of the compilation flow when scheduling operations onto hardware accelerators.
I have been interested in formal verification for hardware for a while, but so far haven't found an opportunity to apply it. There are some great resources online though: the ZipCpu blog at https://zipcpu.com/formal/formal.html and SymbiYosys website at https://symbiyosys.readthedocs.io/en/latest/. I hindsight I could probably have used SymbiYosys instead of Z3, it would have saved me from having to walk the graph and map the gates to equations myself.
amelius 5 days ago
__atx__ 5 days ago
seobotaicom 2 days ago
gyanchawdhary 5 days ago
bux93 5 days ago
But, they do have a hardware division, and Jane Street has a podcast that talks about some of the things they do https://signalsandthreads.com/?tag=hardware
gyanchawdhary 5 days ago
Andrew-Koper 5 days ago
eru 5 days ago
(Or did they close yesterday?)
moebrowne 5 days ago
https://blog.janestreet.com/can-you-reverse-engineer-an-asic...
anitil 4 days ago
eru 4 days ago
In any case, I had it all worked out already. But looking at other people's submissions today showed me that I found some easter eggs other hadn't. That was encouraging. (And I missed some that others found, of course.)
anitil a day ago
I also realised I'd missed a lot of easter eggs, like the morse code - I wish I'd spotted that!
aatd86 5 days ago
I just can't tinker for the sake of tinkering. Too goal oriented I guess.
Just me? (that is also why school started to bore me right before high school and why I learn better on my own, I did go too College but thank god I didn't do CompSci or that would have disgusted me...)
userbinator 4 days ago
dhzzwgzua 5 days ago
anitil 4 days ago
charcircuit 5 days ago
vzcx 5 days ago
These GDS design files have a lot more structure to them.
anitil 5 days ago
marethyu 4 days ago
chermi 5 days ago
skr3178 5 days ago
thisisauserid 5 days ago
myng111 5 days ago
karelpeeters 5 days ago
nostrebored 5 days ago
motoxpro 5 days ago
mring33621 5 days ago
emptyheaded 5 days ago
anitil 4 days ago