Google Antigravity TOS: 3rd party usage can get Google account suspended (twitter.com)
nairboon 16 hours ago
shevy-java 16 hours ago
lenerdenator 14 hours ago
Europe has a long history of government abuses of human rights. There's absolutely no guarantee that such a system being designed and implemented by people in Europe as opposed to the US is a safeguard against any sort of human rights issues.
logicchains 11 hours ago
lenerdenator 8 hours ago
Seriously though, I'm surprised that there's not a lot more mass resistance to the idea. It's a massive surveillance apparatus. Meanwhile, Flock cameras are getting cut down, shot at, spray painted, or stolen with regularity in the US.
userbinator 5 hours ago
For better or worse, there's a sizeable chunk of the US population who still have that "rebel" trait; that and the innate distrust of government and institutions in general is nothing compared to European culture.
giancarlostoro 14 hours ago
toomuchtodo 12 hours ago
I strongly doubt the US would mandate this, but could see the EU doing so. The technical primitives exist and implementation is straightforward. Without a law, this will not change, there is no incentive for it to change.
PontifexMinimus 11 hours ago
toomuchtodo 11 hours ago
subscribed 10 hours ago
With which states?
I'm I'm a citizen of two and live in the third, potentially having eSIM of the fourth?
toomuchtodo 10 hours ago
The US Login.gov idp is about to roll out identity attestation using your state issued government credential provisioned in your mobile wallet (mDL), for example. I can perform identity proofing and attestation with my digital driver's license and passport in my iPhone Wallet today (at a TSA or CBP checkpoint, for example). Why can I not login to Google and Apple with that identity? It is federated identity management fundementally.
https://zendesk.login.gov/hc/en-us/articles/51945946704148-m...
roosterIllusi0n 8 hours ago
lukeschlather 7 hours ago
toomuchtodo 7 hours ago
RedShift1 12 hours ago
9cb14c1ec0 11 hours ago
inetknght 3 hours ago
PunchyHamster 10 hours ago
jedberg 9 hours ago
This is why PayPal for the longest time made it really clear that "we are not a bank". So that they wouldn't be subject to those regulations and could suspend accounts and keep the money.
Terr_ 8 hours ago
They kinda can.
jedberg 6 hours ago
Terr_ 6 hours ago
In other words, you leave the bank-branch with a big sack of cash... And then your car is impounded because you can't prove you're the owner or your license expires, and you'll live in a tent in the woods because landlords can't verify your credit/rental history, etc.
megagpt1 8 hours ago
jedberg 6 hours ago
The important part is that they can't just close your account and keep everything.
pepperoni_pizza 9 hours ago
Meaning the requirement is just Apple or Google account with extra steps.
throwaway13337 11 hours ago
Governments are defined as having a monopoly on violence. And we, through a lot of struggles, were able to attenuate this power such that this power was not granted to a single person alone but both distributed to the judgement of many and codified so that, in theory, no one is above the law. Even imperfect, this cultural belief that governments should behave as such has caused it to be, in a flawed way, more true than it used to be.
These digital gate keepers have special powers that control identity, the algorithms deciding your information awareness, and access to what society now requires to live a normal life. So, what are they? And where is our enlightenment stage? What sorts of human rights are there in this world that we agree on, at least culturally.
I don't believe government regulation is the answer - it has both failed and centralizes again in fewer hands. The thing we need is cultural understanding first of this new sort of entity. And an ethics system that we can agree on that can constrain them as the Magna Carta once described.
How should our collective values shape this?
icantevenhold 10 hours ago
throwaway13337 10 hours ago
But who is the 'we' in that 'we'? If you defer to a politician, you simply centralize more power into a body of government constrained by only cultural norms and donor interests. Making a change requires the shifting of the overtone window of acceptability. At that point, it executes on it own regardless of mechanism.
The cultural norms are the prime mover.
icantevenhold 9 hours ago
megagpt1 8 hours ago
AnthonyMouse 8 hours ago
You're taking it as a premise that someone should have this power, i.e. that the centralization should actually exist.
Compare two alternatives.
One, each person has (is required to have) a single account across all services. You use the same account for the DMV, YouTube, your bank and the IRS.
Two, you have an independent account for each service. You have separate accounts with the IRS, Medicare, DMV, YouTube, etc. If one of them gets messed up or compromised it doesn't affect the others. If you have a dispute with any of them it limits the blast radius.
The first one is a dystopia regardless of who controls the single account. It's subject to abuse of power whether it's a politician or Mark Zuckerberg. So the solution is to demand the second one.
throwaway13337 8 hours ago
But you're still relying on a law if I understand you correctly.
If the society lacks them as deeply ingrained values as opposed to somehow to getting lawmakers to force them, then they will be implemented cynically and not within the spirit of the values. The type of thing that happened with apple's implementation of the anti-gate-keeping laws 'enforced' by the eu.
What you describe requires a flexible values system - not a single semantic standard. I'd love to live in a world where if you were big enough to have people wanting to interoperate with your service on behalf of your users and you were actively preventing it, you'd be an outcast in the deepest sense. That no users would touch your service, and it would be politically unfeasible to deal with you.
We don't live in that world because people have not developed this sort of social norm.
AnthonyMouse 7 hours ago
We currently have an army defeatists who show up to tell you that if you think companies would get more customers by selling products that screw them less, nobody cares about that and people just want to live in a convenient cage with an unlimited supply of artificially sweetened penitentiary gruel. These people (to the extent that any can be found who are not robots) should obviously be burned alive in the town square to serve as an example to the others, but the most important thing if you intend to solve the problem in that way is to ignore them and build the product that screws customers less anyway. And then shame the services not doing that into irrelevance, once the alternative actually exists. Put it in your advertising so people know there is a difference.
Likewise, there are better ways to do anti-gatekeeping rules than what the EU is doing. For example, require two things. First, that source code be published as a requirement to receive copyright protection -- not that the customer can make unlimited copies, but that they can read it to know what it's doing or make changes to their own copy. And second, require that if the manufacturer/seller can modify any code running on the device, so can the customer. Now Apple can do malicious compliance all they like, but any vendor locks they put in will have someone distributing a patch to remove them the next day, and inhibiting that is the thing which is prohibited.
roosterIllusi0n 8 hours ago
Rich people and fascists don't want a smaller government, they want a government too weak to protect you from them.
throwaway13337 8 hours ago
You seem to be saying that there are a group of people who want it this way and they have more power so that is why is it the case.
But how did we get here? It's a complicated question for sure. And for anything that occurred like this, there are many answers depending on where you put the weights.
I put the weights cultural norms of the maybe 100s of thousands of people that had a hand in how we got here in varying degrees. The leaders of the companies of course who didn't get flack in their communities for doing something that was negative to the rest of society. The politicians who played along, the employees who were proud to work at such a place and the family that could be proud of them for it, even us users who sacrificed liberty for safety and convenience.
At every level, it's social norms that caused this to be.
We are, primarily, social creatures. Even the rich - maybe especially the rich - are greatly influenced in how they act by what those they respect think of it.
mapontosevenths 7 hours ago
I assume that by this you mean something more nuanced than "we should abolish the FAA and let the airplanes crash until private enterprise solves it." Or maybe "Let drug dealers (pharmaceutical companies) sell whatever the free market will bear without testing, safety, or the ability to hold them responsible."
I only ask, because there are some people who unironically think that we'd be more safe going back to the time before OSHA, or medical licensing, and some of them hang out here.
josephg 5 hours ago
root_axis 8 hours ago
A more realistic approach is legislation that either forbids providers from suspending or otherwise limiting access to any government integrated system or simply forbidding these types of integrations altogether.
like_any_other 4 hours ago
Is it? Are tech companies so popular that voters would revolt if politicians proposed break-ups? They would not be the first - Standard Oil and Bell were also powerful corporations that got split.
majormajor 2 hours ago
> A more realistic approach is legislation that either forbids providers from suspending or otherwise limiting access to any government integrated system or simply forbidding these types of integrations altogether.
There's more history in the US of successful legislation aimed at breaking up big companies than at that sort of specific narrow technically-aware well-executed regulation.
The former is blunt force. It's relatively easy to target and make effective. It just needs enough ground-level support to get enough people from both parties on board - and we're seeing some shifts that way in the current Republican mishmash of groups.
The latter needs excellent technical knowledge and resistance to super-sophisticated lobbying and loophole-creation. It's very hard to get right.
khriss 2 hours ago
wmf 10 hours ago
throwaway13337 9 hours ago
It's still about framing, though. It's not a fight. The gatekeepers, like governments, laws, and money are social constructs - shared fictions. They are not physical things but made agreements by society. We can't fight them anymore than we can fight ourselves. And they stop working the moment we stop believing in them.
The only way to fight a social construct is to create a new shared fiction that is more desirable and works better.
The machine created by the current social fiction is composed of people who would all be better off with a better narrative. We just don't have the imagination right now to see it. But it is there waiting for us somewhere. Like all the best ideas that transformed us for the better throughout history.
mindslight 10 hours ago
While I agree with where you're coming from in spirit, if you want to push this then you've got to do the work of actually coming up with workable concrete approaches rather than hand waving against a whole general category of action. The problem is that digital communications lend themselves to centralized power, and power vacuums inevitably get filed by something, right?
I too would love to see the power of surveillance companies get magically reduced by something that isn't centralized government action. But that hasn't happened so far, right? If anything, they've grown stronger - sucked in ever more of our lives, sucked in technical communities who were culturally predisposed to and capable of resisting, and even taken over control of parts of the de jure government!
So barring that, government regulation (ie democratic accountability) seems like a necessary approach. This fails too of course (eg how all the natural rights referenced in the Bill of Rights are being infringed in one way or another). But once again what is the alternative to attempting to codify lofty ideals, writing them down, and then pushing to implement them wherever they're being infringed? Regulation like the GDPR and other EU directives at least attempt to draft rights-based paradigms, as imperfect as their implementation and enforcement may be.
The real problem would seem to be that we're soured on the idea of having reasonable laws in the US from every attempt at meaningful regulation ending up with a multitude of holes in it due to corporate lobbying. It seems like that is what needs to be focused on and addressed - thinking one can let the corpos run wild and then somehow outrun or individualistically push back on them is a pipe dream.
throwaway13337 9 hours ago
1. I think sometimes the shape of a technology pushes a shape of society. But there's a feedback loop here. The like 15 years of tech were dominated by ad-tech which lead to algorithmic feeds that made engagement the game. This had an accidental effect of enraging people against eachother. This all started because of how much money google started raking in money on ads - people were aware, and we copy. Tech's focus on ads was an accident of history which could have gone other ways.
Maybe this seems intuitively wrong. Like there is some evolution about how these things must go. But there are a lot of examples in my experience that people see something successful and copy it and then it turns into a cottage industry of whatever that community was.
The best way forward here is to build and be successful while still following good values. The tech moment right now is ripe for it. There's a lot of reasons why open source, local first, and catering to the end user (and not making them the product) is a great way to be successful starting a company right now. Being successful in this way and talking about it breeds more likewise.
2. From what I can tell, pessimism is actively harmful. I've spent a lot of time with Russian communities (most who left due to the war) in these past years. That got me very interested in Russian history.
The weird thing about the arc of it is how similar it has been in every government they've transformed into. The same basic values hold which leads to the same problems: centralized authority, low value for human life, and general oppression. This is true in czarist times, or soviet times, or post-soviet times. Government change doesn't change cultural norms.
That's not to say I think that they are forever doomed. But it is the general zeitgeist of society that leads to the same place. And for it to ever change, their cultural values need to change.
There's a parallel universe out there where Russia is the richest country in the world that enriches and benefits the rest of world as a partner. This is obvious given its natural resources and geographic location at the nexus between great markets, and its history of producing terrific scientists and engineers.
It is the pessimism that kills all of that ultimately leading to autocrats that live to hold on to power at the very high cost of the rest of the country. The assumption that the world will just continue to be shit is what causes this cycle of abuse. It's a very hard cycle to break out collectively once entrenched. As all collective action problems are. But my, now longwinded point, is that it is not government that is the mover of change but philosophical attitude.
Zero-sum thinking, tribalism, and low appreciation for individual self-determination turns us all into a raging bucket of crabs. There will be a king crab but his life will suck too.
megagpt1 8 hours ago
userbinator 5 hours ago
Additionally, they are unelected.
verisimi 11 hours ago
exe34 11 hours ago
megagpt1 10 hours ago
wmf 10 hours ago
EmbarrassedHelp 8 hours ago
megagpt1 8 hours ago
LorenPechtel 4 hours ago
I'm reminded of the guy who lost his Google access over "child pornography"--a picture sent to his little boy's pediatrician that got automatically uploaded. The police agreed he had done nothing wrong, Google didn't give him his account back.
notatoad an hour ago
i've never used openclaw, never tried to use my google ai subscription anywhere other than the antigravity app. but apparently just "our ai mistakenly suspects you might be using openclaw" is enough to get your google account temporarily suspended. not worth the risk for me, i need a google account more than i need antigravity.
and the ban would be bad enough, but the communication was nonexistent. just a sign-in error on the antigravity app, then a day later it updated to show a vauge warning about openclaw with a link to a random google form to submit an appeal, and then a couple days later my account magically started working again.
Havoc 15 hours ago
And then you get to fight the support bots and eventually go to the actual unofficial Google support - asking hn whether anyone knows someone with a pulse at Google.
colkassad 14 hours ago
somehnguy 14 hours ago
Luckily I use a custom domain so accounts won't need to be updated, just emails exported and DNS changed.
surajrmal 14 hours ago
account42 13 hours ago
wat10000 14 hours ago
mcepl 12 hours ago
bingbong4748 11 hours ago
Access to nearly 20 years of emails, photos and docs gone in an instant.
It’s been particularly painful because she used Google to log in to everything too, including for health records that she needs.
There is no way of contacting anyone at Google about it and apparently nothing that can be done anyway. It’s absolutely devastating. They’re still charging her for Google One and she can’t even manage the subscription because she can’t log in.
I urge anyone reading this to do a Google Takeout request and make a local backup of all the data they hold.
exe34 10 hours ago
(I'm aware domains can be stolen too, but I expect to have some leverage as I'm paying for that in the UK.)
Terr_ 6 hours ago
I've been meaning to get back to tinkering with a Immich on a docker container, as a Google Photos competitor I can self-host.
mhitza 10 hours ago
If not directly through what is offered there, under the DSA (eu citizens and residents) have further ways to appeal their decision, and also Google takeout should be a last option even for banned accounts.
If you have any luck post a followup on HN to guide other users having a similar issue.
bingbong4748 10 hours ago
“”” Ask us to restore your account
If you own the account, you can request access to it again.
- Sign in to your Google Account on a browser, like Chrome. - Select Start Appeal. - Follow the instructions. “””
C’mon Google, if I could do step 1 then I wouldn’t be on this page.
I will absolutely post a guide if we can figure out a way out of this mess.
Appreciate you trying to help. I’ll do a bit more digging on that page and see if I can find anything.
mhitza 10 hours ago
Otherwise the DSA approach, with whatever that may entail process wise.
KennyBlanken 2 hours ago
rsync 10 hours ago
Of course there is: you pay your lawyer to send correspondence by registered mail.
Then you have them send followup correspondence a week or so later.
You will absolutely get a response.
fishpen0 10 hours ago
nikanj 9 hours ago
dqv 4 hours ago
What you do is send Google your own correspondence, certified mail, giving them a heads up that you've contacted the attorney general. That usually gets an even quicker response than from a personal lawyer :)
It also gives the attorney general office a heads up if they need to be scrutinizing a company like Google more carefully if they're getting a lot of complaints.
Situations like this are exactly what they're here for.
nikanj 9 hours ago
Flagged as a potential bot, gotta tread really carefully or they'll nuke my "normal" google account too.
NewsaHackO 12 minutes ago
danschuller 17 hours ago
wlesieutre 16 hours ago
deltoidmaximus 15 hours ago
ryandrake 14 hours ago
Hizonner 14 hours ago
janalsncm 6 hours ago
hirvi74 4 hours ago
Though, I only have one HN account, fwiw.
simonsarris 12 hours ago
- Varun Mohan on the antigravity team
bilalq 11 hours ago
bryan0 11 hours ago
stronglikedan 11 hours ago
Seems like one account for idendity (gmail and personal gemini assistant) and another for everything else would be a best practice.
earth-tattoo 11 hours ago
croes 41 minutes ago
ckocagil 10 hours ago
dahdum 11 hours ago
croes 42 minutes ago
hmokiguess 16 hours ago
We should really find a way to break the tightly coupling to these platforms, including mobile carriers, and not have to live in fear.
Having a real representative of each platform in a government branch under regular hours that citizens can access with their documents so that any issues with it can be dealt is a good first step.
killerstorm 15 hours ago
skinfaxi 15 hours ago
Zigurd 14 hours ago
Total bans are convenient for the big platform providers, but they are big enough to be regulated such that people don't lose access to everything, and that there are timely and responsive ways to challenge their decisions.
If the industry can't do that on its own, it's a job for the regulators.
killerstorm 12 hours ago
literalAardvark 11 hours ago
Ours sends revenue service notifications exclusively via email, a lossy system... and legally assumes you got it.
verdverm 10 hours ago
pram 15 hours ago
serf 11 hours ago
not to beat a dead horse in this thread , but that should give the motivation needed to seek alternatives.
dig1 16 hours ago
If your account is that valuable, it's time to consider moving to a self-hosted option. Or at the very least, start by purchasing a domain and linking it to your Google account, while keeping offline backups of all your emails and documents.
The real problem isn't that Google might accidentally ban you; it's that there's no way to get a human in the loop to review the issue. My client is an enterprise GCP user paying a hefty sum every month and getting someone knowledgeable typically means wading through Gemini or talking to (non-technical) support who just read GCP documentation back to you; and it can take months something to get resolved. Now imagine the situation for someone paying nothing or a double-digit for their gmail account or workspace.
I'm aware people will complain that self-hosting is hard, insecure, etc. but it's like a backup: an annoying process you truly appreciate when shit hits the fan.
tedivm 15 hours ago
ryandrake 14 hours ago
joseda-hg 12 hours ago
artdigital 5 hours ago
delduca 12 hours ago
userbinator 5 hours ago
These days, those two might be the same thing.
julianz 6 hours ago
The process to get un-suspended was completely byzantine and Google's own support desk wasn't able to do anything. I just kept trying newer versions of Antigravity until it eventually grew the ability to explain what was going on and then let me request access back.
pkfz 14 hours ago
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3104521/teenagers-gemini-mis...
x0x0 12 hours ago
https://www.androidauthority.com/google-account-bans-3654171...
Not taking a side, but I remember that too and had looked later.
That said, I deliberately don't trust any google services. Fastmail is great; you all should try it. Google capriciously bans accounts, so keep your email elsewhere.
0cf8612b2e1e 12 hours ago
Tried to use modern technology for the health of his son and was digitally executed for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-cs...
x0x0 11 hours ago
simonw 4 hours ago
overgard 16 hours ago
esseph 15 hours ago
segfaultex 15 hours ago
Personally, this is why I foresee Anthropic/OpenAI/Google taking a bath once their creditors come calling. I think the individuals most attached to a specific app are the ones least willing to pay the true cost of inference. (IE: your grandma using chatgpt to ask for recipe recommendations probably isn't going to pay $400/mo).
dylanowen 14 hours ago
verdverm 10 hours ago
bitexploder 6 hours ago
yellow_lead 16 hours ago
I don't care if my Claude or OpenAI account is banned, but risking a Google account is different.
morkalork 15 hours ago
yellow_lead 15 hours ago
1. https://www.pcworld.com/article/3104521/teenagers-gemini-mis...
r0fl 2 hours ago
I’ve uninstalled it and will never again use a Google ai product since my Gmail account is simply too important to lose. I don’t care if it’s 10x better and 10x cheaper , these kind of terms are insane!
subscribed 10 hours ago
And we tell our children the same.
esoltys 8 hours ago
h_mirin 16 hours ago
I am also fairly confident that nobody sees the moderation decisions either.
lovelearning 16 hours ago
The VSCode Antigravity extension I was using turns out to be a 3rd-party one. I found out only today that there's an official extension too, which I think wasn't there earlier.
Lord_Zero 14 hours ago
smartbit 5 hours ago
Aeolun 17 hours ago
Is OpenAI the only one that allows this? Because Codex without codex is fantastic.
fractorial 17 hours ago
Seriously: I roll my own harness over OpenRouter and GPT 5.6, and it is genuinely better than CC+Fable for my maths and programming use cases.
The one thing Fable 5.1 still tops out on is the ability to take a simple "Let's engage in an interactive complexity-removing session" and materialize abstractions and semantics quickly.
dnautics 14 hours ago
verdverm 10 hours ago
per token pay-go is typically unrestricted aiui
blfr 12 hours ago
I don't appreciate but kinda understand that Anthropic can act arrogant with Fable. Google (shockingly) is really in no position for this.
moshegramovsky 11 hours ago
I was a huge Gemini fan, and I think the model itself is still very good. But Antigravity is absolutely horrible. It routinely writes broken code and then ends up in a short term cycle of reverting and re-implementing.
It's so bad that I don't use it for writing code and certainly wouldn't even bother trying to get it to refactor anything. It's been relegated it to analysis and planning. It is excellent there.
I can't be the only one who find this a little inexplicable that a company with Google's resources is fumbling this so badly.
verdverm 11 hours ago
many of their best people left during the SaaS boom cycle in the 20'oughts, current leadership is abysmal
there is also that well known promotion incentive misalignment at big g
serf 11 hours ago
Too bad this anti 3rd party usage stance basically makes that a huge risk for a lot of people, it was the only thing Gemini has been competitive in outside of API cost.
throwaway2027 15 hours ago
matheusmoreira 8 hours ago
Buy a domain. Get fastmail, proton mail or any other service. Point your DNS to it. Done.
Grombobulous 4 hours ago
Out of all the AI-enabled coding environments it seems to have the most downsides.
AM1010101 16 hours ago
tedivm 16 hours ago
This is something I've seen happen a lot with Google- their employees (especially the director+ folks) are absolutely rabid on social media when it comes to defending their products, and they don't let little things like "facts" get in the way.
Google needs to get a better social media policy because they look like clowns when they do this.
kmeisthax 14 hours ago
Also keep in mind nobody reads the TOS. The TOS is pure Wilhoitism: it exists to protect Google and bind you. There is plenty of shit that gets put in there that Google never intends to do to 90%+ of their customers, but they have to reserve the right to do this anyway. You can infer the general shape of business policy from the the TOS but not the exact details.
The only people who actually know anything about Google's business policies are the people in the risk department doing enforcement. The CxO level might have be consulted about specific policies, but a lot of stuff isn't going to rise to their level until it blows up and becomes a PR disaster.
[0] I call this the "Maoists in the Risk Department": in general, there is a tendency of all businesses to independently reinvent Maoism when enforcing rules with their customers. You actively discourage "edge-touching" behavior from your customers by making the rules murky and incomprehensible.
r_lee 12 hours ago
they don't understand the concept of external users being a thing
that's the impression I've gotten
dimgl 11 hours ago
verdverm 10 hours ago
dimgl 9 hours ago
verdverm 5 hours ago