nairboon 16 hours ago

Just for reference, stuff like this is exactly why some people oppose the forced Apple/Google requirement in government systems like the new eIDs (eIDAS) in Europe. If you're forced to use Apple/Google for digital identification, playing around with your Google account and get it banned can have disproportional consequences. Suddenly you're locked out of all online government systems.

shevy-java 16 hours ago

It is a very clear act of total betrayal for europan governments to use taxpayers money from Europeans, to invest into US mega-corporations that proxy-enslave Europeans. Lobbyists in Europe are getting rich right now.

lenerdenator 14 hours ago

Who gets the money shouldn't be your focus, it's that there's even talk of anyone building such a system at all that should be the focus.

Europe has a long history of government abuses of human rights. There's absolutely no guarantee that such a system being designed and implemented by people in Europe as opposed to the US is a safeguard against any sort of human rights issues.

logicchains 11 hours ago

What do you mean, you don't think a party named the "Alternative for Deutschland" would make benevolent use of such systems when it gets into power?

lenerdenator 8 hours ago

Ah, yes, AfD. Where you can walk into a meeting, and cut off a guy's speech about five minutes in with this line [0]

Seriously though, I'm surprised that there's not a lot more mass resistance to the idea. It's a massive surveillance apparatus. Meanwhile, Flock cameras are getting cut down, shot at, spray painted, or stolen with regularity in the US.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3AegXcu7kA

userbinator 5 hours ago

Meanwhile, Flock cameras are getting cut down, shot at, spray painted, or stolen with regularity in the US.

For better or worse, there's a sizeable chunk of the US population who still have that "rebel" trait; that and the innate distrust of government and institutions in general is nothing compared to European culture.

giancarlostoro 14 hours ago

At that point, Google and Apple should be legally barred from fully banning you if it impedes you identifying yourself unless your account is hacked.

toomuchtodo 12 hours ago

Google and Apple should be legally mandated to federate with nation state identity systems. This prevents them from revoking access, as the identity management is within nation state control vs big tech. You potentially have recourse with your government, you have no recourse with Google and Apple (current state). They may consume your identity for your benefit, but they may not control your digital identity. If a Big Tech company chooses to ban you, they should be required to provide you, at their cost, a copy of all of your data stored with them and report that they did so to a regulator.

I strongly doubt the US would mandate this, but could see the EU doing so. The technical primitives exist and implementation is straightforward. Without a law, this will not change, there is no incentive for it to change.

PontifexMinimus 11 hours ago

The way the EU could implement this is to mandate only using identity providers can guarantee they will not revoke people's identities, and the only way to make that guarantee watertight is to mandate only identity providers based within the EU.

toomuchtodo 11 hours ago

There are no guarantees unfortunately, just contracts (formal and informal) that can be broken and paths as to what happens when those contracts degrade or fail. Agree with you on mandating EU only idps for those who reside within the EU jurisdiction.

subscribed 10 hours ago

> Google and Apple should be legally mandated to federate with nation state identity systems.

With which states?

I'm I'm a citizen of two and live in the third, potentially having eSIM of the fourth?

toomuchtodo 10 hours ago

The same states and countries they integrate with today for digital identity verification. If you have a passport, national ID card, or US state ID or driver's license, you have a government provided digital identity that can bound to and authenticated against. I'm probably missing a government credential in scope, but the backend database lookup is trivial.

The US Login.gov idp is about to roll out identity attestation using your state issued government credential provisioned in your mobile wallet (mDL), for example. I can perform identity proofing and attestation with my digital driver's license and passport in my iPhone Wallet today (at a TSA or CBP checkpoint, for example). Why can I not login to Google and Apple with that identity? It is federated identity management fundementally.

https://zendesk.login.gov/hc/en-us/articles/51945946704148-m...

https://learn.wallet.apple/id

https://wallet.google/intl/en_us/digitalid/

roosterIllusi0n 8 hours ago

Why does google and apple need a government login? This makes no sense. You do not want private billionaire companies coming anywhere near a government login. If they get to use it, they will lobby to make it less secure to support more datamining.

lukeschlather 7 hours ago

Putting IDs in mobile wallets is such a minefield without explicit bans on phone searches by law enforcement. Law Enforcement being able to rifle through all your email/bank/medical records because you had a traffic stop is just not acceptable.

toomuchtodo 7 hours ago

The ID can be presented without providing the device to law enforcement. Same UX as a payment, it’s an NFC exchange.

RedShift1 12 hours ago

Gov. logins and services should never depend on companies like Google.

9cb14c1ec0 11 hours ago

This is the solution. Implementing auth isn't that difficult.

inetknght 3 hours ago

Oh yeah, auth itself isn't that difficult. But... auth resilient against malicious actors?

PunchyHamster 10 hours ago

our govt farms the authorization out to banks (multiple of them), seems to work well. There is also a govt auth on top of that if you don't want that.

jedberg 9 hours ago

Banks can't just ban you, nor just take your money. The price they pay for being gatekeepers is a ton of regulation.

This is why PayPal for the longest time made it really clear that "we are not a bank". So that they wouldn't be subject to those regulations and could suspend accounts and keep the money.

Terr_ 8 hours ago

> Banks can't just ban you

They kinda can.

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/

jedberg 6 hours ago

Sure, but they have to give you your money back. They can't just keep the money.

Terr_ 6 hours ago

I think in this context the concern isn't that you'll lose the money, but your loss of all legal/practical authentication mechanisms.

In other words, you leave the bank-branch with a big sack of cash... And then your car is impounded because you can't prove you're the owner or your license expires, and you'll live in a tent in the woods because landlords can't verify your credit/rental history, etc.

megagpt1 8 hours ago

Banks can just ban you if they whisper the magic words "suspected money laundering". They are theoretically accountable to a process that takes 500 years and 3 quadrillion dollars to reach a resolution, then they will unban you. You might notice both you and the bank will be dead by that time.

jedberg 6 hours ago

I actually know someone this happened to. While they did ban him from using the bank, they first warned him, gave him a chance to close out his open transactions, and then helped him move all the money somewhere else at no cost.

The important part is that they can't just close your account and keep everything.

pepperoni_pizza 9 hours ago

Depends on where. Here, basically all banks require MFA - where the only supported second factor is their app on an iPhone or non-rooted Android.

Meaning the requirement is just Apple or Google account with extra steps.

throwaway13337 11 hours ago

Maybe we should reframe how we see the big gate keepers like Google and Apple as they seem to be a new concept. They are not governments but have properties of them.

Governments are defined as having a monopoly on violence. And we, through a lot of struggles, were able to attenuate this power such that this power was not granted to a single person alone but both distributed to the judgement of many and codified so that, in theory, no one is above the law. Even imperfect, this cultural belief that governments should behave as such has caused it to be, in a flawed way, more true than it used to be.

These digital gate keepers have special powers that control identity, the algorithms deciding your information awareness, and access to what society now requires to live a normal life. So, what are they? And where is our enlightenment stage? What sorts of human rights are there in this world that we agree on, at least culturally.

I don't believe government regulation is the answer - it has both failed and centralizes again in fewer hands. The thing we need is cultural understanding first of this new sort of entity. And an ethics system that we can agree on that can constrain them as the Magna Carta once described.

How should our collective values shape this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

icantevenhold 10 hours ago

We should break these companies apart - they should not have that level of power.

throwaway13337 10 hours ago

Centralization of power at all levels is bad. I therefore agree in spirit.

But who is the 'we' in that 'we'? If you defer to a politician, you simply centralize more power into a body of government constrained by only cultural norms and donor interests. Making a change requires the shifting of the overtone window of acceptability. At that point, it executes on it own regardless of mechanism.

The cultural norms are the prime mover.

icantevenhold 9 hours ago

We the people

megagpt1 8 hours ago

How?

AnthonyMouse 8 hours ago

> If you defer to a politician, you simply centralize more power into a body of government constrained by only cultural norms and donor interests.

You're taking it as a premise that someone should have this power, i.e. that the centralization should actually exist.

Compare two alternatives.

One, each person has (is required to have) a single account across all services. You use the same account for the DMV, YouTube, your bank and the IRS.

Two, you have an independent account for each service. You have separate accounts with the IRS, Medicare, DMV, YouTube, etc. If one of them gets messed up or compromised it doesn't affect the others. If you have a dispute with any of them it limits the blast radius.

The first one is a dystopia regardless of who controls the single account. It's subject to abuse of power whether it's a politician or Mark Zuckerberg. So the solution is to demand the second one.

throwaway13337 8 hours ago

Open standards, protocols, and interoperability are definitely part of my values.

But you're still relying on a law if I understand you correctly.

If the society lacks them as deeply ingrained values as opposed to somehow to getting lawmakers to force them, then they will be implemented cynically and not within the spirit of the values. The type of thing that happened with apple's implementation of the anti-gate-keeping laws 'enforced' by the eu.

What you describe requires a flexible values system - not a single semantic standard. I'd love to live in a world where if you were big enough to have people wanting to interoperate with your service on behalf of your users and you were actively preventing it, you'd be an outcast in the deepest sense. That no users would touch your service, and it would be politically unfeasible to deal with you.

We don't live in that world because people have not developed this sort of social norm.

AnthonyMouse 7 hours ago

This is one of those problems where there are different ways to solve it but all of them require you to put in the work.

We currently have an army defeatists who show up to tell you that if you think companies would get more customers by selling products that screw them less, nobody cares about that and people just want to live in a convenient cage with an unlimited supply of artificially sweetened penitentiary gruel. These people (to the extent that any can be found who are not robots) should obviously be burned alive in the town square to serve as an example to the others, but the most important thing if you intend to solve the problem in that way is to ignore them and build the product that screws customers less anyway. And then shame the services not doing that into irrelevance, once the alternative actually exists. Put it in your advertising so people know there is a difference.

Likewise, there are better ways to do anti-gatekeeping rules than what the EU is doing. For example, require two things. First, that source code be published as a requirement to receive copyright protection -- not that the customer can make unlimited copies, but that they can read it to know what it's doing or make changes to their own copy. And second, require that if the manufacturer/seller can modify any code running on the device, so can the customer. Now Apple can do malicious compliance all they like, but any vendor locks they put in will have someone distributing a patch to remove them the next day, and inhibiting that is the thing which is prohibited.

roosterIllusi0n 8 hours ago

That is ridiculous. These big tech companies are supposed to be broken up under the current rules. Effective government is not big government, it is right sized.

Rich people and fascists don't want a smaller government, they want a government too weak to protect you from them.

throwaway13337 8 hours ago

I agree with you. They are in violation of a reasonable interpretation of anti-trust laws already on the books. It's quite clear. And yet those laws are not enforced.

You seem to be saying that there are a group of people who want it this way and they have more power so that is why is it the case.

But how did we get here? It's a complicated question for sure. And for anything that occurred like this, there are many answers depending on where you put the weights.

I put the weights cultural norms of the maybe 100s of thousands of people that had a hand in how we got here in varying degrees. The leaders of the companies of course who didn't get flack in their communities for doing something that was negative to the rest of society. The politicians who played along, the employees who were proud to work at such a place and the family that could be proud of them for it, even us users who sacrificed liberty for safety and convenience.

At every level, it's social norms that caused this to be.

We are, primarily, social creatures. Even the rich - maybe especially the rich - are greatly influenced in how they act by what those they respect think of it.

mapontosevenths 7 hours ago

> Centralization of power at all levels is bad.

I assume that by this you mean something more nuanced than "we should abolish the FAA and let the airplanes crash until private enterprise solves it." Or maybe "Let drug dealers (pharmaceutical companies) sell whatever the free market will bear without testing, safety, or the ability to hold them responsible."

I only ask, because there are some people who unironically think that we'd be more safe going back to the time before OSHA, or medical licensing, and some of them hang out here.

josephg 5 hours ago

If anything, I think software needs more of these sort of top down safety rules. I want to companies held financially / criminally responsible for data leaks. Just like restaurants are held responsible for food safety.

root_axis 8 hours ago

A politically impossible outcome that isn't worth hanging our hopes on.

A more realistic approach is legislation that either forbids providers from suspending or otherwise limiting access to any government integrated system or simply forbidding these types of integrations altogether.

like_any_other 4 hours ago

> politically impossible

Is it? Are tech companies so popular that voters would revolt if politicians proposed break-ups? They would not be the first - Standard Oil and Bell were also powerful corporations that got split.

majormajor 2 hours ago

> A politically impossible outcome that isn't worth hanging our hopes on.

> A more realistic approach is legislation that either forbids providers from suspending or otherwise limiting access to any government integrated system or simply forbidding these types of integrations altogether.

There's more history in the US of successful legislation aimed at breaking up big companies than at that sort of specific narrow technically-aware well-executed regulation.

The former is blunt force. It's relatively easy to target and make effective. It just needs enough ground-level support to get enough people from both parties on board - and we're seeing some shifts that way in the current Republican mishmash of groups.

The latter needs excellent technical knowledge and resistance to super-sophisticated lobbying and loophole-creation. It's very hard to get right.

khriss 2 hours ago

You can thank Citizens United for that.

wmf 10 hours ago

Cultural understanding without regulation is just serfdom. That's basically what we have now where most people aren't willing to fight Apple/Google/Meta/MS.

throwaway13337 9 hours ago

I can see why it can feel like that.

It's still about framing, though. It's not a fight. The gatekeepers, like governments, laws, and money are social constructs - shared fictions. They are not physical things but made agreements by society. We can't fight them anymore than we can fight ourselves. And they stop working the moment we stop believing in them.

The only way to fight a social construct is to create a new shared fiction that is more desirable and works better.

The machine created by the current social fiction is composed of people who would all be better off with a better narrative. We just don't have the imagination right now to see it. But it is there waiting for us somewhere. Like all the best ideas that transformed us for the better throughout history.

mindslight 10 hours ago

> I don't believe government regulation is the answer

While I agree with where you're coming from in spirit, if you want to push this then you've got to do the work of actually coming up with workable concrete approaches rather than hand waving against a whole general category of action. The problem is that digital communications lend themselves to centralized power, and power vacuums inevitably get filed by something, right?

I too would love to see the power of surveillance companies get magically reduced by something that isn't centralized government action. But that hasn't happened so far, right? If anything, they've grown stronger - sucked in ever more of our lives, sucked in technical communities who were culturally predisposed to and capable of resisting, and even taken over control of parts of the de jure government!

So barring that, government regulation (ie democratic accountability) seems like a necessary approach. This fails too of course (eg how all the natural rights referenced in the Bill of Rights are being infringed in one way or another). But once again what is the alternative to attempting to codify lofty ideals, writing them down, and then pushing to implement them wherever they're being infringed? Regulation like the GDPR and other EU directives at least attempt to draft rights-based paradigms, as imperfect as their implementation and enforcement may be.

The real problem would seem to be that we're soured on the idea of having reasonable laws in the US from every attempt at meaningful regulation ending up with a multitude of holes in it due to corporate lobbying. It seems like that is what needs to be focused on and addressed - thinking one can let the corpos run wild and then somehow outrun or individualistically push back on them is a pipe dream.

throwaway13337 9 hours ago

What you're saying is super reasonable and the ways I think about it too sometimes. I have two thoughts on this and I'm not sure how clear I can be.

1. I think sometimes the shape of a technology pushes a shape of society. But there's a feedback loop here. The like 15 years of tech were dominated by ad-tech which lead to algorithmic feeds that made engagement the game. This had an accidental effect of enraging people against eachother. This all started because of how much money google started raking in money on ads - people were aware, and we copy. Tech's focus on ads was an accident of history which could have gone other ways.

Maybe this seems intuitively wrong. Like there is some evolution about how these things must go. But there are a lot of examples in my experience that people see something successful and copy it and then it turns into a cottage industry of whatever that community was.

The best way forward here is to build and be successful while still following good values. The tech moment right now is ripe for it. There's a lot of reasons why open source, local first, and catering to the end user (and not making them the product) is a great way to be successful starting a company right now. Being successful in this way and talking about it breeds more likewise.

2. From what I can tell, pessimism is actively harmful. I've spent a lot of time with Russian communities (most who left due to the war) in these past years. That got me very interested in Russian history.

The weird thing about the arc of it is how similar it has been in every government they've transformed into. The same basic values hold which leads to the same problems: centralized authority, low value for human life, and general oppression. This is true in czarist times, or soviet times, or post-soviet times. Government change doesn't change cultural norms.

That's not to say I think that they are forever doomed. But it is the general zeitgeist of society that leads to the same place. And for it to ever change, their cultural values need to change.

There's a parallel universe out there where Russia is the richest country in the world that enriches and benefits the rest of world as a partner. This is obvious given its natural resources and geographic location at the nexus between great markets, and its history of producing terrific scientists and engineers.

It is the pessimism that kills all of that ultimately leading to autocrats that live to hold on to power at the very high cost of the rest of the country. The assumption that the world will just continue to be shit is what causes this cycle of abuse. It's a very hard cycle to break out collectively once entrenched. As all collective action problems are. But my, now longwinded point, is that it is not government that is the mover of change but philosophical attitude.

Zero-sum thinking, tribalism, and low appreciation for individual self-determination turns us all into a raging bucket of crabs. There will be a king crab but his life will suck too.

megagpt1 8 hours ago

IP is super decentralised. Digital communications could have led to a more decentralised society than ever before, and in the beginning , they end. But in the end, they didn't, because large actors figured out how to exploit them.

userbinator 5 hours ago

They are not governments but have properties of them.

Additionally, they are unelected.

verisimi 11 hours ago

We already live in fascism - governments and corporations are just wings of the same bird.

exe34 11 hours ago

It's actually why I will never use any of Google's paid services like compute or LLMs or storage. I will not risk my access to important services. "Free" Gmail and search is all I will use.

megagpt1 10 hours ago

Which is funny because the government can't legally ban you from the government. If you suffer any consequences from this, the government is at fault in every case. Of course, good luck proving it while you're in jail.

wmf 10 hours ago

In that case you should be able to create another Google account.

EmbarrassedHelp 8 hours ago

Politicians have been pushing companies to be more aggressive about banning individuals who open new accounts after their previous one gets banned. That was even one of the requirements of the deal in the recent social media court case in the US.

megagpt1 8 hours ago

What's your evidence politicians are relevant to this?

LorenPechtel 4 hours ago

And there's the problem that they can do this with no recourse and no defense permitted.

I'm reminded of the guy who lost his Google access over "child pornography"--a picture sent to his little boy's pediatrician that got automatically uploaded. The police agreed he had done nothing wrong, Google didn't give him his account back.

notatoad an hour ago

i was using antigravity pretty heavily for a while in the spring, it seemed to be a good value for my usage. then i got banned out of the blue for "suspected" ToS violations, with a notification that heavily hinted it was because of openclaw.

i've never used openclaw, never tried to use my google ai subscription anywhere other than the antigravity app. but apparently just "our ai mistakenly suspects you might be using openclaw" is enough to get your google account temporarily suspended. not worth the risk for me, i need a google account more than i need antigravity.

and the ban would be bad enough, but the communication was nonexistent. just a sign-in error on the antigravity app, then a day later it updated to show a vauge warning about openclaw with a link to a random google form to submit an appeal, and then a couple days later my account magically started working again.

Havoc 15 hours ago

Banning the entire account rather than AI access is wildly user hostile. People have years of emails and calendars on their accounts.

And then you get to fight the support bots and eventually go to the actual unofficial Google support - asking hn whether anyone knows someone with a pulse at Google.

colkassad 14 hours ago

Good argument for breaking up the company.

somehnguy 14 hours ago

I haven't touched Google's AI suite due to this. I need to migrate my email away from Google - the stakes are too high.

Luckily I use a custom domain so accounts won't need to be updated, just emails exported and DNS changed.

surajrmal 14 hours ago

This feels like the sort of thing that needs to be legislated. Banning accounts after breaking ToS is a pretty common behavior across many companies. The fact a Google account ends up being used for multiple products makes it more interesting but the overall problem here is not unique to them.

account42 13 hours ago

Yes, in general, scale needs to come with more responsibilities, including a requirement to provide due process, not less like it currently does.

wat10000 14 hours ago

Big companies are all becoming user hostile these days. They act like the customer is an inconvenience rather than a fundamental part of their business. Every interaction exudes this feeling that your primary role is to serve as an unwanted impediment to money flowing out of your bank account and into theirs.

mcepl 12 hours ago

And we are not in The Crash yet! Imagine how will they behave when they become desperate!

bingbong4748 11 hours ago

My mom’s Gmail account got banned for no reason whatsoever last week. Since then they removed her recovery number and 2FA as they ‘looked suspicious’.

Access to nearly 20 years of emails, photos and docs gone in an instant.

It’s been particularly painful because she used Google to log in to everything too, including for health records that she needs.

There is no way of contacting anyone at Google about it and apparently nothing that can be done anyway. It’s absolutely devastating. They’re still charging her for Google One and she can’t even manage the subscription because she can’t log in.

I urge anyone reading this to do a Google Takeout request and make a local backup of all the data they hold.

exe34 10 hours ago

I have an auto "checkout" every month and I download my data. I don't know if it's readable, I haven't checked, but it feels comforting. My email is also just a private name@domain that forwards to my Gmail. If I ever need to switch, it would be a simple update with my registrar.

(I'm aware domains can be stolen too, but I expect to have some leverage as I'm paying for that in the UK.)

Terr_ 6 hours ago

> I don't know if it's readable, I haven't checked, but it feels comforting.

I've been meaning to get back to tinkering with a Immich on a docker container, as a Google Photos competitor I can self-host.

mhitza 10 hours ago

I hope this page can provide some guidance in the appeal process https://transparency.google/intl/en-GB_in/tools-programs/rep...

If not directly through what is offered there, under the DSA (eu citizens and residents) have further ways to appeal their decision, and also Google takeout should be a last option even for banned accounts.

If you have any luck post a followup on HN to guide other users having a similar issue.

bingbong4748 10 hours ago

I had a look at the link and became hopeful when I clicked on “Appeal a disabled account”, but then the page loaded and said this -

“”” Ask us to restore your account

If you own the account, you can request access to it again.

- Sign in to your Google Account on a browser, like Chrome. - Select Start Appeal. - Follow the instructions. “””

C’mon Google, if I could do step 1 then I wouldn’t be on this page.

I will absolutely post a guide if we can figure out a way out of this mess.

Appreciate you trying to help. I’ll do a bit more digging on that page and see if I can find anything.

mhitza 10 hours ago

You might want to try to follow on that, maybe they do have a separate if in their codebase if you're logging in for the appeal.

Otherwise the DSA approach, with whatever that may entail process wise.

KennyBlanken 2 hours ago

Or you can not waste your time and hire an attorney to send them a polite letter saying "put the account back or get sued."

rsync 10 hours ago

“… There is no way of contacting anyone at Google about it …”

Of course there is: you pay your lawyer to send correspondence by registered mail.

Then you have them send followup correspondence a week or so later.

You will absolutely get a response.

fishpen0 10 hours ago

Everyone everywhere has the money and time to keep a lawyer on retainer. This is super equitable and a reasonable way to run society

nikanj 9 hours ago

Everyone Google cares about, anyway.

dqv 4 hours ago

Nah, we all pay for a lawyer with our taxes: the attorney general.

What you do is send Google your own correspondence, certified mail, giving them a heads up that you've contacted the attorney general. That usually gets an even quicker response than from a personal lawyer :)

It also gives the attorney general office a heads up if they need to be scrutinizing a company like Google more carefully if they're getting a lot of complaints.

Situations like this are exactly what they're here for.

https://www.naag.org/find-my-ag/

nikanj 9 hours ago

My youtube student account was blocked this week. Google offers a student discount if you register with your school email, so I created a new youtube account for that.

Flagged as a potential bot, gotta tread really carefully or they'll nuke my "normal" google account too.

NewsaHackO 12 minutes ago

No one has actually had their account banned for this, Google just disables their Antigravity access due to breaking TOS. People just repeat the line that “Google bans accounts” because it’s a bigger headline draw.

danschuller 17 hours ago

Apart from the products not being very competitive this is the main reason I'm reluctant to use any Google models / AI products. The account is way to precious thing to lose based on some AI classifier misfiring and then you know there's good route to get it reenabled.

wlesieutre 16 hours ago

Same. The more of Google's services I touch, the more chance that some errant auto-moderation system will lock me out of Gmail and their support won't do anything about it. Better to not risk it, I don't even log in to YouTube.

deltoidmaximus 15 hours ago

Google made some noise awhile back about banning youtube accounts for using adblockers. I'm not sure if they went through with it but it just isn't worth the risk if you have a more important service the relies on google.

ryandrake 14 hours ago

Sounds like a good reason to start eliminating your dependence on Gmail. You don't want to tie something as important as your E-mail identity to an account that you might get banned from.

Hizonner 14 hours ago

If your Google account is precious, you've already done something wrong...

janalsncm 6 hours ago

Yes as a teenager I made many mistakes, not least of them being making a Gmail account. I even used it to sign up for a few services. I do have a bit of a wild side so sometimes I log in to check it.

hirvi74 4 hours ago

Couldn't one just make a separate Google account for the models/AI products? I usually have multiple accounts with most providers, multiple banks, multiple brokerages, etc.. It really is not that difficult to manage.

Though, I only have one HN account, fwiw.

simonsarris 12 hours ago

> The wording is confusing but the account in question is the Antigravity account. We will change the ToS wording here to make that clearer.

- Varun Mohan on the antigravity team

https://x.com/_mohansolo/status/2095529407033000260

bilalq 11 hours ago

Zero trust in Google making that distinction correctly. Antigravity is DOA for me.

bryan0 11 hours ago

There is no world in which it makes sense to take this risk. There are plenty of great alternatives where you don't have to worry about playing russian roulette with your entire online identity.

stronglikedan 11 hours ago

> with your entire online identity

Seems like one account for idendity (gmail and personal gemini assistant) and another for everything else would be a best practice.

earth-tattoo 11 hours ago

Google can and will block any linked accounts as well. For some reason I'm not allowed on AdWords. I have tried making new accounts and they always block my ads. I don't know how they figure it out that it's me. Other people on the same wifi have no issues running same ads (for same YouTube videos).

croes 41 minutes ago

Did you use Chrome?

ckocagil 10 hours ago

I'd rather go the other way and entirely decouple my online identity from Google (or Apple/Meta/Microsoft). Much better than constantly worrying about some crappy AI deciding to ruin your life with no recourse.

dahdum 11 hours ago

I just cancelled my AI Ultra subscription, despite what he claims the risk is too high and I’ll never put my trust in a Google ban reconsideration.

croes 42 minutes ago

Because the wording is the problem not the way how they suspect third party use

hmokiguess 16 hours ago

The larger issue here is the fact that access to an account can hold you hostage and impact your life in essential services.

We should really find a way to break the tightly coupling to these platforms, including mobile carriers, and not have to live in fear.

Having a real representative of each platform in a government branch under regular hours that citizens can access with their documents so that any issues with it can be dealt is a good first step.

killerstorm 15 hours ago

The government haven't noticed that email became as important as regular mail, unfortunately.

skinfaxi 15 hours ago

The government has a monopoly on regular mail though (at least in the US). Should email be treated as a utility?

Zigurd 14 hours ago

That would be one way to do it but the problem isn't confined to email. Losing an online identity means losing, in practical terms, access to a wide range of government services and regulatorily required filings.

Total bans are convenient for the big platform providers, but they are big enough to be regulated such that people don't lose access to everything, and that there are timely and responsive ways to challenge their decisions.

If the industry can't do that on its own, it's a job for the regulators.

killerstorm 12 hours ago

Something like that. I think DNS registry system works pretty well under ICANN supervision: user isn't tied to a specific registrar.

literalAardvark 11 hours ago

It's noticed... selectively.

Ours sends revenue service notifications exclusively via email, a lossy system... and legally assumes you got it.

verdverm 10 hours ago

Perhaps they haven't seen https://jmail.world

pram 15 hours ago

This is exactly why I haven't used any of Google's AI stuff. Unlike other providers, I'm risking my email and internet service (GFiber!) to some capricious ban-happy whim you probably can't even appeal.

serf 11 hours ago

>whim you probably can't even appeal.

not to beat a dead horse in this thread , but that should give the motivation needed to seek alternatives.

dig1 16 hours ago

> (from Twitter) ...My Google account too valuable to risk it impacted by Antigravity usage

If your account is that valuable, it's time to consider moving to a self-hosted option. Or at the very least, start by purchasing a domain and linking it to your Google account, while keeping offline backups of all your emails and documents.

The real problem isn't that Google might accidentally ban you; it's that there's no way to get a human in the loop to review the issue. My client is an enterprise GCP user paying a hefty sum every month and getting someone knowledgeable typically means wading through Gemini or talking to (non-technical) support who just read GCP documentation back to you; and it can take months something to get resolved. Now imagine the situation for someone paying nothing or a double-digit for their gmail account or workspace.

I'm aware people will complain that self-hosting is hard, insecure, etc. but it's like a backup: an annoying process you truly appreciate when shit hits the fan.

tedivm 15 hours ago

I don't self host anymore, as it really is a pain, but use Fastmail instead (while my wife uses Protonmail). I would never rely on Google for, well, anything if I can help it.

ryandrake 14 hours ago

I have been self hosting E-mail for close to 15 years now, and apart from the occasional and very rare delivery problem, it's not really a pain at all. Get a dedicated IP address not on a spam blacklist, don't spam, and it's pretty much set and forget. Well worth it to not have your very identity hanging off an account that you might one day be banned for for reasons you can't figure out.

joseda-hg 12 hours ago

If you're, say, Theo, you can selfhost email all you want, but it still ties down your YouTube channel, AdSense, etc., with little to no recourse.

artdigital 5 hours ago

I’m also doing YouTube and the first thing I did was create a separate Google account for it. I’d be very surprised if Theo has everything running on the same personal account

delduca 12 hours ago

I used to use Gmail since beta, then moved out last year because of this kind of "situation".

userbinator 5 hours ago

typically means wading through Gemini or talking to (non-technical) support who just read GCP documentation back to you

These days, those two might be the same thing.

julianz 6 hours ago

Speaking from experience here, they don't ban your entire Google account, they block access to Antigravity (and only that, other Google AI services are still available). Pi very briefly supported logging into Antigravity a few months ago, I did so and made a couple of toy queries and then didn't use it again, and my Antigravity access was suspended until a few weeks ago.

The process to get un-suspended was completely byzantine and Google's own support desk wasn't able to do anything. I just kept trying newer versions of Antigravity until it eventually grew the ability to explain what was going on and then let me request access back.

pkfz 14 hours ago

That reminds me the story about closing family wide Google accounts, because of a kid, whose account was managed by Google Family Link, was sending naked selfies to Gemini

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3104521/teenagers-gemini-mis...

x0x0 12 hours ago

fwiw, google said that didn't happen.

https://www.androidauthority.com/google-account-bans-3654171...

Not taking a side, but I remember that too and had looked later.

That said, I deliberately don't trust any google services. Fastmail is great; you all should try it. Google capriciously bans accounts, so keep your email elsewhere.

0cf8612b2e1e 12 hours ago

There was that father who sent some naked pictures of his kid to a nurse for a consultation. Google flagged the account for CSAM and reported him to the authorities. Even after being cleared of all charges, Google refused to reinstate his account, so he lost his digital life.

Tried to use modern technology for the health of his son and was digitally executed for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-cs...

x0x0 11 hours ago

I'm aware. Like I said, you're foolish to trust google. That said, the claim in the reddit post: that the ban spread across the entire gsuite account and also any account that used that device, is far more aggressive.

simonw 4 hours ago

I talked about that case with a friend who used to work at Google and, whether or not that specific case was true, he did confirm that any CSAM at all in an account can very often make account recovery completely impossible.

overgard 16 hours ago

I don't get these model providers forcing people to use their (bad) software. I just downgraded my anthropic account because I can't stand the bugfest that is Claude. I won't even touch google for AI. Doesn't matter if your model is good if I have to use your software.

esseph 15 hours ago

Ad injection or prepping for ad injection.

segfaultex 15 hours ago

With open-weight models getting closer and closer to parity with frontier models for specific tasks (coding,etc) the frontier labs are trying to make moats via their software.

Personally, this is why I foresee Anthropic/OpenAI/Google taking a bath once their creditors come calling. I think the individuals most attached to a specific app are the ones least willing to pay the true cost of inference. (IE: your grandma using chatgpt to ask for recipe recommendations probably isn't going to pay $400/mo).

dylanowen 14 hours ago

Kind of ironic for these companies to make their moat software while at the same time saying that SaaS and software development in general is obsolete

verdverm 10 hours ago

"programming is solved" has also been said, I don't know how someone can say that with a straight face, let alone going on a podcast tour with it as the mantra

bitexploder 6 hours ago

Does Claude not allow third party harnesses?

yellow_lead 16 hours ago

You may also be banned by asking "sensitive" or "inappropriate" questions. So normal usage of Google AI products could also be risky.

I don't care if my Claude or OpenAI account is banned, but risking a Google account is different.

morkalork 15 hours ago

Does that apply to the search AI too?

yellow_lead 15 hours ago

I don't know but I'm basing my assumptions on this article: Teenager’s Gemini mistake locks entire family out of Google accounts [1].

1. https://www.pcworld.com/article/3104521/teenagers-gemini-mis...

r0fl 2 hours ago

I’ve been an antigravity user since day one. It’s been great when I hit usage limits.

I’ve uninstalled it and will never again use a Google ai product since my Gmail account is simply too important to lose. I don’t care if it’s 10x better and 10x cheaper , these kind of terms are insane!

subscribed 10 hours ago

And this, dear Watson, is why we never use Google services for anything serious.

And we tell our children the same.

esoltys 8 hours ago

There are official extensions for using Antigravity in IDEs. "Antigravity uses a unified authentication system across all IDE extensions, the Antigravity CLI, and Antigravity 2.0 (Desktop). Your sign-in determines your model entitlements, quota limits, and data privacy policies."

https://antigravity.google/docs/ide/extensions/

h_mirin 16 hours ago

I can be fairly confident that when Google says they don’t see your data, they don’t.

I am also fairly confident that nobody sees the moderation decisions either.

lovelearning 16 hours ago

Good that I saw this.

The VSCode Antigravity extension I was using turns out to be a 3rd-party one. I found out only today that there's an official extension too, which I think wasn't there earlier.

Lord_Zero 14 hours ago

Yeah they had gemini extensions, they depreciated them and forked vscode, now they are crawling back to vscode with antigravity extensions...

smartbit 5 hours ago

Is Antigravity CLI still the only TUI allowed for Gemini? Coming from Claude Code, agy is quite a few steps back. Particularly I miss /ide that can connect to vscode and then can display a pre-write diff which then can be acknowledged or declined in CC.

Aeolun 17 hours ago

Well, I’m glad I’m not using my google account for much any more.

Is OpenAI the only one that allows this? Because Codex without codex is fantastic.

fractorial 17 hours ago

> Because Codex without codex is fantastic.

Seriously: I roll my own harness over OpenRouter and GPT 5.6, and it is genuinely better than CC+Fable for my maths and programming use cases.

The one thing Fable 5.1 still tops out on is the ability to take a simple "Let's engage in an interactive complexity-removing session" and materialize abstractions and semantics quickly.

dnautics 14 hours ago

You can wrap claude code in a harness without -p, it works fine. I think most of the concern was that -p resubmits the entire chat history on each prompt which is really bad for kv caching, and when Anthropic announced that they were ok with 3rd party harnesses that DO use -p I think they had figured out the routing and caching for thinking token hash ids

verdverm 10 hours ago

I believe you can use an OpenCode Go sub with any tool, was stated as such last time I looked at their docs.

per token pay-go is typically unrestricted aiui

blfr 12 hours ago

This would have been a massive issue if Antigravity/Gemini were any good.

I don't appreciate but kinda understand that Anthropic can act arrogant with Fable. Google (shockingly) is really in no position for this.

moshegramovsky 11 hours ago

100% this.

I was a huge Gemini fan, and I think the model itself is still very good. But Antigravity is absolutely horrible. It routinely writes broken code and then ends up in a short term cycle of reverting and re-implementing.

It's so bad that I don't use it for writing code and certainly wouldn't even bother trying to get it to refactor anything. It's been relegated it to analysis and planning. It is excellent there.

I can't be the only one who find this a little inexplicable that a company with Google's resources is fumbling this so badly.

verdverm 11 hours ago

or that the company that invented transformers is fumbling this so badly

many of their best people left during the SaaS boom cycle in the 20'oughts, current leadership is abysmal

there is also that well known promotion incentive misalignment at big g

serf 11 hours ago

Gemini is great (and fast) at vision tasks. It's a huge benefit to add on to an existing pi/omp harness install just for that feature to use in conjunction with other (stronger) models.

Too bad this anti 3rd party usage stance basically makes that a huge risk for a lot of people, it was the only thing Gemini has been competitive in outside of API cost.

throwaway2027 15 hours ago

This is why I'm hesitant to buy Google AI again. I don't want to risk some npm install compromising my Google account which also happens to do AI coding.

matheusmoreira 8 hours ago

It's never too late to degoogle.

Buy a domain. Get fastmail, proton mail or any other service. Point your DNS to it. Done.

Grombobulous 4 hours ago

Is anyone really using Antigravity? It seemed rather hyped when it launched but since then I have heard absolutely nothing about it and don’t have a single contact in my Rolodex who uses it.

Out of all the AI-enabled coding environments it seems to have the most downsides.

AM1010101 16 hours ago

I don't understand why google are being like this. This is an opportunity to extend an olive branch to developers (like openai has) and a great way to get data around how people are actually making this model work for them regarding coding…

tedivm 16 hours ago

I think an interesting side of this conversation is how the Google employees are jumping in with DARVO attacks, trying to accuse people of spreading misinformation when they're literally quoting the ToS.

This is something I've seen happen a lot with Google- their employees (especially the director+ folks) are absolutely rabid on social media when it comes to defending their products, and they don't let little things like "facts" get in the way.

Google needs to get a better social media policy because they look like clowns when they do this.

kmeisthax 14 hours ago

There have been cases in which friends or family of Google employees have gotten the Google Death Penalty. In those cases they were internally stonewalled about this for weeks. Google's risk department works like secret police[0] and I would not be surprised if there is internal disinformation about what the policies actually are in there too.

Also keep in mind nobody reads the TOS. The TOS is pure Wilhoitism: it exists to protect Google and bind you. There is plenty of shit that gets put in there that Google never intends to do to 90%+ of their customers, but they have to reserve the right to do this anyway. You can infer the general shape of business policy from the the TOS but not the exact details.

The only people who actually know anything about Google's business policies are the people in the risk department doing enforcement. The CxO level might have be consulted about specific policies, but a lot of stuff isn't going to rise to their level until it blows up and becomes a PR disaster.

[0] I call this the "Maoists in the Risk Department": in general, there is a tendency of all businesses to independently reinvent Maoism when enforcing rules with their customers. You actively discourage "edge-touching" behavior from your customers by making the rules murky and incomprehensible.

r_lee 12 hours ago

Googlers expect the consumers of their products to be Googlers who can just read up on the internal info or ping someone etc

they don't understand the concept of external users being a thing

that's the impression I've gotten

dimgl 11 hours ago

I'm currently working on a harness and I just integrated Antigravity support through `agy`. I can't risk my main Google account getting banned so it looks like I'll be stopping this immediately. Yikes... and I was feeling good about 3.8 Flash too...

verdverm 10 hours ago

OpenCode is a good harness that works with every token vendor

dimgl 9 hours ago

Err... the harness I'm building works just fine with Google APIs.

verdverm 5 hours ago

It sounded closer to Scion, which wraps the various harnesses. Given your reply, I'm not sure where your project sits in the stack or what you mean by `agy` support in another harness