This is as long before ancient Sumer as ancient Sumer is before us today.
Mind-boggling.
lproven 3 hours ago
This is as long before ancient Sumer as ancient Sumer is before us today.
Mind-boggling.
Insanity 2 hours ago
So to think that Egyptians and Romans in Cleopatra's era went to visit the Pyramids as a kind of tourist thing from a civilization 2 millennia removed from them is quite astounding.
I guess Cleopatra feels somewhat 'close' to us due to the surviving literary and archeological artifacts from the Roman empire.
GolfPopper 2 hours ago
https://www.theglobalwow.com/mammoths-alive-during-pyramids/
krapp 2 hours ago
Shakespeare wrote a play about her and Elizabeth Taylor played her in a movie. The effect of modern media is 99% of the reason why Cleopatra feels more "contemporary" than, say, Hatshepsut (for whom plenty of artifacts exist) or even Nefertiti.
quuxplusone an hour ago
Hatshepsut and Nefertiti lived respectively 1400 and 1300 years before Cleopatra, and about 700 years before even the founding of Rome. I'm no expert, but seems to me that those two names completely disappeared from the historical record between say 1000 BC and AD 1800, and were rescued from obscurity only by 19th-century archaeologists.
Insanity an hour ago
I don't think Sharespeare would have mentioned her had she not figured prominently in the lives of main figures during the fall of the Republic.
PowerElectronix 2 hours ago
retrac 2 hours ago
It's due to the historiography of western civilization that for so long always traced its origins back to Greece (and Cleopatra was, of course, Greek.)
Compare to Mesopotamia, Sumer mentioned by the parent comment. There may be more surviving cuneiform literature than Greek and Latin. The sheer volume is kind of hard to overstate. The Library of Ashurbanipal is a prime find but hardly the only one of its kind: 30,000 tablets including mostly-complete copies of epic poems, histories, dictionaries, and thousands of administrative and personal letters. And there's millions more tablets from thousands of other digs.
And the crates and crates and crates of ordinary shipping receipts, if ever systematically studied, offer the potential to understand their society in ways we never will with classical antiquity.
But most haven't been read. There aren't enough people who know Sumerian and Akkadian (and all the other languages written in cuneiform over its 3000 year history) and how to read cuneiform for the task to translate them all to be completed in our lifetimes.
Stories of Mesopotamia do not always resonate. In fact they are often very alien and inscrutable. It's very hard to grasp the Mesopotamian mind. I'm unsure if this is lack of familiarity or because they really were so different, because in the western tradition they are the canonical Eastern Other, and shrouded with thousands of years of myth and misunderstanding.
Despite, or perhaps because of, the strangeness, I found reading translations of Gilgamesh and Atra-Hasis to be revelatory and hope that my descriptions don't put anyone off. They're worth it. To this day "Babylon" has all sorts of associations, many of them unsavory. Which is rather unfair to them.
The Babylonians had 360 degrees in their circles, 24 hours in their days, and when they looked up at the stars they saw patterns like the Twins (what the Greeks would borrow as Gemini), the Bull of Heaven (Taurus), and the Crawfish (Cancer), the Hebrew month of Tammuz is named after the Sumerian fertility god Dumuzid, and the Mesopotamians leave many other echoes in the later cultures, now that we know to look.
0xffff2 an hour ago
exhumet an hour ago
ch4s3 an hour ago
roryirvine 15 minutes ago
https://www.csmc.uni-hamburg.de/publications/mesopotamia/202...
"Artificial intelligence can therefore provide researchers with a significant support, helping them link together texts that mention the same individual, a geographical site, or a word within a large digitised corpus. But we are still far from machine decipherment of texts."
ccozan an hour ago
one LLM is enough!
MomsAVoxell an hour ago
I truly believe we might one day, soon hopefully, see an LLM making observations about our history which blow open the horizon of humanities future.
Imagine, if you will, some of the secrets buried in these texts, revealing to us all just how it all began, and where things are headed.
In the grand context of galactic-scale civilizations, we might be in for some surprises ..
t-writescode 34 minutes ago
They’d be very, very good at reading, discerning, summarizing, etc, vast quantities of text like this.
asdff an hour ago
Seems like there ought to be countless ancient proto writing systems not just in our species either. I guess most species aren't in situations where storing information like this offers much of a selective advantage. Maybe you can count an animal scent marking out its territory as a sort of proto writing system; it is only somewhat different than the plat map in your city hall.
EDIT: Apparently neanderthals are thought to have used tally marks... (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-did-neanderth...)
exhumet an hour ago
ccozan an hour ago
MomsAVoxell an hour ago
Let that sink in!
It is extraordinary to me that they don't get as much clout as they deserve for maintaining human civilization for so long. They literally evolved cryptologically sound techniques for maintaining their history - through fires, floods, calamity and Mother Nature.
We can't even keep our stories straight in the modern era for longer than 8 months.
ViktorRay 44 minutes ago
lisper 29 minutes ago
I know that this is commonly believed, but how could you possibly know?
AlecSchueler 26 minutes ago
How is this confirmed without records?
janandonly an hour ago
Nicholas_C 3 hours ago
optimalsolver 2 hours ago
adriand 3 hours ago
Interesting that "you've got a monkey on your back" is a commonly-used expression in English. I could imagine these people saying the exact same thing, with "leopard" substituted in.
"Bro, I gotta get this leopard off my back..."
jollyllama 2 hours ago
schainks an hour ago
ck2 17 minutes ago
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe#/media/File:...
the modern people who first looked at it thought it was just a graveyard with stone markers on the graves
then someone dug down much further and those stone markers were several meters high
YeGoblynQueenne 3 hours ago
So, er, what is the um narrative conveyed by this scene?
bena 3 hours ago
He could be trying to protect his junk from the leopards, or taunting the leopards by jerking at them. So many options. The past was just as juvenile and perverse as modernity.
anentropic 3 hours ago
westmeal 3 hours ago
ccozan an hour ago
tclancy 2 hours ago
Contortion 2 hours ago
Exoristos an hour ago
webdoodle 2 hours ago
samudrijan 3 hours ago
dyauspitr 3 hours ago
hluska 3 hours ago
I’m certainly not an expert but he’s holding his stomach in one hand, giving himself a good tug with the other and looks somewhere between scared and confused. The leopard on the left is all smiles.
There’s another dude standing a few figures away with his back turned to old tug-a-lug. He’s holding something and looks kind of ashamed though I could be reading that into the image since it’s not really well carved… Tug-a-lug is the best carved of all and must be the centrepiece of the story.
If this is another great flood narrative, I sure prefer the Hebrew great flood story.
indianwashlets 2 hours ago
ozgung an hour ago
See his 2.6 meter statue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karahan_Tepe#/media/File:Karah...
adityapatadia 3 hours ago
erikig 27 minutes ago
ks2048 17 minutes ago
oriettaxx an hour ago
stainablesteel 2 hours ago
he might be standing and holding it, but that's a nice find
huseyinkeles an hour ago
Zigurd 2 hours ago
tclancy 2 hours ago