RAG Is Simpler Than You Think (lighthousenewsletter.com)
usernametaken29 8 hours ago
lacedeconstruct 8 hours ago
ozim 7 hours ago
I want fuzzy search like 95% of time and then I might consider having additional list of things that can be suggested by vector search.
a1o 7 hours ago
gwerbin 6 hours ago
t_mahmood 4 hours ago
wongarsu 7 hours ago
j0selit0 4 hours ago
EagnaIonat 4 hours ago
Volume of documents, size of documents, versioning, frequency of update, documents similar or overlapping information, how much or exactly what you need for the LLM to understand, AI friendly documents, who has access and at what level, blue teaming, red teaming, multi-lingual, does the LLM know the domain language of the user and documents.
I probably missed a few things even with that.
kaon_2 8 hours ago
jon-wood 8 hours ago
whilenot-dev 8 hours ago
kaon_2 8 hours ago
jameshart 7 hours ago
tantalor 8 hours ago
hnfong 8 minutes ago
I think there needs to be a linguist version of "what every programmer needs to know about (full?) text search"...
I'm not a linguist and I don't study languages, but I know enough to realize if a text search system is not designed for a particular language, it simply won't work. (As an example, to implement English search in a system for a hobby project, I had to import a US/UK spelling wordlist, and implement the Porter Stemming Algorithm. This is just for "one" language, and probably does not cover the other "English" dialects. Imagine doing a different workaround for every language in existence...)
RAG is actually a very language-agnostic way to work around those issues.
jameshart 7 hours ago
(Obviously this doesn’t apply to searching actual rich document data - for that, go all in on text search, embedding, etc)
clevergadget 7 hours ago
josh_p 7 hours ago
It was one of the most fun projects I've worked on in my career so far. I got a learn a lot about how US and international addresses worked, so many edge cases, and got to really understand how customers were using the existing search to make sure they weren't adding any duplicates to the database. Token filters and synonyms were neat and figuring out the right indexing strategy was a lot of fun.
It was a lot more work to get it right for most of the use-cases our customers had than just "throw it into ES and be done". That would probably have been fine for the 80/20 case, like you said, but I agree that the bulk of the work is going to be fine-tuning the search solution, whatever technology you're using.
oever 6 hours ago
mmargenot 6 hours ago
quijoteuniv 6 hours ago
idontneedcoffee 6 hours ago
gardnr 3 hours ago
shay_ker 6 hours ago
bensyverson 6 hours ago
mdp2021 6 hours ago
It is not psychological, it is fully justified: substring search cannot find synonyms, periphrases and mistaken neighbours.
locknitpicker 5 hours ago
It is, if people don't even stop to think if they need synonyms, periphrases, or mistaken neighbours.
As the blog post points out, more often than not you don't, particularly if your primary usecase is to search for technical keywords or codenames.
lopsotronic 4 hours ago
Vectors and LLMs are great, but there's no magic pill here. If your parts data and config management[1] is all crazy, that's an institutional problem. Buying a crapton of tokens isn't fixing it, unless you're using it to help build an actual formal solution based on good fundamentals.
[1] Such as it is.
dominotw 4 hours ago
i dont believe ppl are building rag for this
andy99 4 hours ago
mdp2021 an hour ago
On the other hand, your post may contain a good idea: L=instruct_LLM("provide a list of synonyms and periphrases of terms T within context C", T, C); then iter(`grep l in L`). One NN query and a `grep` collection. But again, if one wanted to order the results, it is either through a dumb crierion or through another LLM query - but this could make it extremely costly (requiring either a huge context or a quadratic number of ordering queries).
And, the above `grep` based procedure would remain keyword based and not semantic based, which means that the user must know that it will not be based on comprehension but on the possible results that keyword matching can yield.
andai 5 hours ago
https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/contextual-retrieval
This is from two years ago, but I think it's still SotA?
gardnr 3 hours ago
piterrro 3 hours ago
_the_inflator 3 hours ago
RAG is routing and decision making.
I found so much joy in achieving the best results given the requirements than simply hoping for the best with the cool kid called vector db and embeddings.
I agree with you.
Depending on the context and required output I decide how to orchestrate a multitude of specialized modules that produce the best specific result to gain a universally usable system.
It maintains itself.
Also live updates need reruns and rebuilding certain indexes. Everything is highly dynamic but in a deterministic way.
I found my niche with RAG selling and I build them myself.
I take pride in them.
So many look at the technology but not on the required output. It takes hours of talking to people to get an idea of what they need.
And there are regulated businesses where certain information is required to be always factual correct - pricing for example.
Vector search becomes a liability for this use case.
So naturally you have to reconsider your system: mixing factual with probabilistic content and how to make sure, it hits always certain quality benchmarks and on the other hand doesn’t fail others.
I love this kind of stuff.
And there is personal information etc.
Using modules is the key. Orchestration is really fun but I have to admit, not for the faint of heart.
And ever changing parts: LLMs, or restrictions to be matched liked autonomously working - I love RAG.
It gave me back the joy of developing. In fact I never had so much phun before, because it is also “team work”: I am not programming, I am managing a product.
I was in Senior Management of a top tier international bank and besides that build the only ever working platform or IT transformation called dbCORE and overlooked 13 teams with 120 developers.
RAG gives me dbCORE vibes so to say.
Good luck and fun with your RAG systems.
IronyMan1 2 hours ago
jillesvangurp 7 hours ago
The key thing with RAG is to get the right information in the context with as few queries as possible. That requires good recall (ensuring that if it is there it can be found with a reasonable query) and precision (ensuring the best stuff is on top and minimizing false positives).
With search, and by extension RAG, the principle of shit in, shit out applies. Most of what search teams did before AI and RAG is still the best way to optimize the experience with RAG. And if you mess that up, search is not going to be working that well and no amount of AI can compensate for that or only at great cost in tokens and time. So, having an ETL pipeline to pre-process what you index, testing & benchmarking search quality, etc. are all helpful.
The good news is that you don't need that much skills with agentic coding to build something half decent for this. This code almost writes itself. And even a little bit of effort on extracting structure before indexing can make a big difference.
dmix 4 hours ago
Similar to SEO on marketing pages, we started rewriting product docs around the idea that it will be consumed by a RAG. Mostly by putting a lot of focus on well structured headlines, thinking more carefully about technical terminology vs common human-language questions, occasionally using variations of keywords in the text, etc. This applies to pure LLM consumption too, not just hybrid search.
Once you start tracking what users are asking you learn to adapt the documentation around it. And LLMs can also suggest improvements by comparing questions vs search results vs LLM responses.
jillesvangurp 2 hours ago
If you flatten all that into plain text and then create embeddings, you are effectively throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But on the other hand if you put some effort into normalizing and extracting some structured meta data, you gain a flexibility to do more sophisticated querying that get you more precise results.
You can of course try to fix things at the source, which is a valid thing but usually not that practical when you have a lot of data to worry about.
Angostura 9 hours ago
So: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation
_joel 9 hours ago
dotancohen 8 hours ago
vaylian 8 hours ago
Lorean1 8 hours ago
Zambyte 8 hours ago
tux3 7 hours ago
That is so not Web 5.0. Best I can offer is a support widget that pops up and keeps trying to talk to you until you interract with it.
ninkendo 7 hours ago
It’s not that I can’t or don’t know how, it’s rather that the expectation should be that a website should… link you to the information it believes to be relevant background. It’s why it’s called a “web”, linking is a core concept.
brazukadev 6 hours ago
in this case there was a menu in the next empty table and you saw it but in place of getting it you want the waitress to get it for you. Which is a normal behavior but you could save your time by just getting the menu yourself.
AshleyGrant 6 hours ago
As OP said, simply providing a link to a Wikipedia article, or a glossary, helps widen the audience beyond "IFYKYK."
The NWS knows this and automatically links to their glossary for both acronyms as well as jargon in their discussions. <-- See what I did there? What does NWS mean in this context? If only I had provided a link that would help you know. I very easily could have. I just didn't.
serf 3 hours ago
it also serves as a minimum barrier to entry for the masses, which isn't always a bad thing.
if you're reading this stuff, and you can't figure out what kind of RAG that the search engine mentioned is being talked about through context clues, or you aren't clever enough to feed context into the search like 'hackers , computers, rag' as a query -- there is a very high probability that the person will have absolutely nothing constructive to add to the conversation that is about the topics they haven't even yet conceptualized or are aware of.
in that case that slight barrier to entry for the conversation will serve as a tool to produce less work for the moderators and derail less threads into uselessness.
(much like this stupid divergence.)
AshleyGrant 3 hours ago
No. Lowering the barrier of entry to those who are trying, in earnest, to learn about a new topic, to broaden their base of knowledge is NEVER a bad thing. None of us were born with the knowledge to read this (or similar) article. Trying to kick the ladder down after you have climbed it is terrible behavior and absolutely must be discouraged and stopped at all costs.
> much like this stupid divergence
The only thing stupid in this conversation is the insistence that folks who might know less than the author of the linked article or the poster do not deserve to have access to the information.
serf 4 hours ago
inigyou 6 hours ago
mdp2021 6 hours ago
Angostura 4 hours ago
arjie 3 hours ago
The acronym constraint was valid in a pre-LLM world but now you are perhaps 3 clicks in a modern browser from learning.
If I read an article that spelled out Random Access Memory I would definitely treat that as a lay article.
triceratops 2 hours ago
jrochkind1 8 hours ago
Is anyone else actually finding it harder and harder to read LLM generated text? I find it quite tiring, my brain just does not want to get through it.
allexander 8 hours ago
EGreg 8 hours ago
allexander 8 hours ago
Planktonne 7 hours ago
We've all learnt that it's not really communication, and so can be dispensed with.
inigyou 6 hours ago
cpdomina 5 hours ago
"using GPT-4o-mini for query rewriting" -> model from 2024, when RAG was trendy, and all the langchain, llama-index, etc, docs mentioned this specific model
timedude 4 hours ago
j0selit0 4 hours ago
cpdomina 3 hours ago
polynomial 31 minutes ago
alerighi 5 hours ago
polynomial 32 minutes ago
alansaber 5 hours ago
seamossfet 2 hours ago
"on the fly embedding" and "Sparse + dense reranking" don't really make sense how they're presented and smell like they came from a long claude-driven conversation after multiple cycles of these hybrid compromises across many turns.
ChipopLeMoral an hour ago
"Recipe 4: On-The-Fly Embedding (The Fresh Data Play)
The insight If your data changes frequently, why pay to re-embed everything?"
This reads like every Claude generated presentation I've seen.
seamossfet an hour ago
refactor_master 9 hours ago
Then, throw it all in BigQuery. Handles all the vector stuff natively.
Sprinkle an agentic bot UI thing on top to make it appear all-knowing and magical.
I assume other vendors than Google have a similar batteries-included approach you can just plug in.
cpursley 9 hours ago
orisho 9 hours ago
cpursley 7 hours ago
usernametaken29 8 hours ago
This assumes your text is small. Try embedding pdf reports - though luck. It surely won’t fit into most embeddings. I can think of many more examples: books, news articles, medical reports, insurance claims etc. they’re all too big to “index it all at once”
robrorcroptrer 7 hours ago
freakynit 7 hours ago
refactor_master 5 hours ago
If someone gave me a report, in my hands, that said “see ‘it’” I’d also be confused.
gf000 5 hours ago
harlanji 4 hours ago
Natural language processing could expanded references, but it starts to get tricky. Do you use Graph RAG, embed another version of the chunk that is distinct from the full text version, etc.. Another layer of processing and data to keep in sync if the source dan be updated.
gf000 3 hours ago
512 tokens ≈ 350–400 words ≈ a long paragraph or two. 1024 tokens ≈ 700–800 words ≈ about a page and a half to two pages.
I would be very surprised if that amount of text is not enough to encode a general topic into the embedding (otherwise, what would be the whole point of them?).
So if there is a meaningful reference in C referring to A (assuming A-B-C consecutive 1-2 paragraphs), I would expect that the content of the two at least superficially resemble each other, and a vector query for one would return both. (And also, if I am including A in the context after retrieval, then I better give some context before-after as well -- and references tend to be local).
But feel free to prove me wrong, I'm mostly just guessing, not even an educated (in the given topic) guess here.
mdp2021 6 hours ago
Because you could have clever ideas about vectors related to more paragraphs related in the document structure - but that would multiply the vectors. The index can become much bigger than the corpus.
khalic 7 hours ago
j0selit0 4 hours ago
akshay_akula 28 minutes ago
7734128 9 hours ago
Yes, embeddings are computationally heavy, but they are not at all complicated and they provide a lot of benefit.
90% of "document" based RAG projects should view semantic search with embeddings as their primary method.
It's very powerful and so easy to implement that you could try it out and discover whether performance would be an issue rather than trying to anticipate it.
petesergeant 9 hours ago
dizhn 9 hours ago
dotancohen 8 hours ago
> we don’t especially want to say that books on forestry and similar to books on puppies
^and^arerglover 6 hours ago
pantsforbirds 4 hours ago
waximabbax 3 hours ago
After doing some rigorous A/B testing, we dropped indexing. For coding, I think the reason is that a repo is already searchable. Imports, call sites, file and test names, grep gives you cheap yet reliable version of what indexing would do, and the agent can read around a hit to verify it. Chunked retrieval hands the model something that looks right, and it tends to trust that instead of going to look for the actual source. Another thing that I noticed was the most intelligent models like Opus 5 and Fable ignored chunks anyway most of the time for some reason. Possibly perhaps they are trained around not trusting similarity checks for codebases.
Extremely large codebases with docs feel different. You can’t grep for a concept you can’t name. That’s the case where I’d still use retrieval.
(I work on TheGitAI, for disclosure.)
Alifatisk an hour ago
klm127 5 hours ago
I had to look it up.
spunker540 3 hours ago
RAG is simply fetching external data (retrieval) and adding it to LLM context (augmenting) prior to generating a final response.
Any time LLMs do a grep or a web search to answer the query, it’s RAG. Many people use vector db for their own RAG implementation bc of the semantic search benefits.
0x457 2 hours ago
People don't understand that any sort of retrieval before generation is RAG.
bob1029 9 hours ago
Embeddings and semantic search add non determinism on top of non determinism. This seems fundamentally cursed. Lexical is much easier to control, iterate and debug. The tools are incredibly mature. Your users will probably prefer it as well.
jankovicsandras 9 hours ago
https://github.com/jankovicsandras/plpgsql_bm25 BM25 search implemented in PL/pgSQL ( Unlicense / Public domain )
The repo includes also plpgsql_bm25rrf.sql : PL/pgSQL function for hybrid search ( plpgsql_bm25 + pgvector ) with Reciprocal Rank Fusion; and Jupyter notebook examples.
jmutex 8 hours ago
esafak 6 hours ago
Otterly99 7 hours ago
If you are building a RAG pipeline for your company and are struggling like me, I would recommend this author that has whole series on entreprise documents (start with the one from May 22nd): https://towardsdatascience.com/author/angela.shi/page/4/
Note: I am not the author, just got her article in my newsletter and found it useful.
saltysalt 5 hours ago
ivansavz 7 hours ago
I'd like to work with a corpus offline (internal university research data) and I'm hoping I can get everything done without the data leaving the premises.
I guess the biggest bottleneck is going to be for the context window size which won't be able to fit too many result "hits."
Any info or advice would be appreciated.
yipinwong 4 hours ago
The AI that wrote this might be the master not the writer, as this looks written by AIs.
I will use the author's agents, not read his articles or use him for the job.
j0selit0 4 hours ago
yipinwong 2 hours ago
gabosarmiento 8 hours ago
Everyone keeps posting articles about how to implement RAG, but I also wonder why there isn’t some sort of skill to help people create a simple retrieval plan, starting with the retrieval methods and connecting them with evals. This could show whether they actually improve the result and make retrieval simpler for any agent, instead of making people start from zero.
autogn0me 7 hours ago
j0selit0 4 hours ago
Tycho 5 hours ago
maxrumpf 5 hours ago
(found of sid.ai so obv biased)
khalic 9 hours ago
Oh boy...
geniium an hour ago
nilirl 9 hours ago
How is RAG any different from the search systems we've been building before LLMs? Is it the sudden need for everyone to design a search API and engine that's driven this trend?
If so, I'd like to see more design patterns around existing search problems:
- Correcting or backtracking based on feedback.
- Measuring relevance.
- Comparison with task-based pre-written queries. Does every LLM task need a full blown search engine? Why not a tightly scoped domain API for data retrieval?
TudorAndrei 9 hours ago
kachnuv_ocasek 9 hours ago
mdp2021 6 hours ago
Let's say it's just "computation packaged as something new". "Trivial things".
brabel 9 hours ago
triangle 9 hours ago
ozim 7 hours ago
What makes it worse, a lot of people in the thread equate vector search with RAG, whereas RAG is the name for anything that model can query so a user doesn't have to copy/paste feed it to the model manually like access to text files is RAG.
nilirl 9 hours ago
Where's the new design tension? Indexes always had to be monitored for freshness and queries have always needed cleaning or parsing.
ewidar 8 hours ago
at least to me that seems the same as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word2vec for e.g.
Foobar8568 7 hours ago
esafak 6 hours ago
"The future is already here—It's just not very evenly distributed..."
vintermann 7 hours ago
KaseyKim 8 hours ago