https://xcancel.com/lemire/status/2091894299289874926

ksec 13 hours ago

This is still an ARM C1-Ultra. Same one used in Mediatek dimensity 9500, which also got more than 4000 points in GB6 lab test. But actual results inside phone with smartphone cooling and wattage requirement became close to 3300.

But perhaps the most important thing, Xiaomi is now able to make chip similar to Mediatek. They are the third largest Smartphone manufacturer by shipment volume. And they are still growing.

This is bad news for Mediatek and Qualcomm.

pelagicAustral 13 hours ago

> This is bad news for Mediatek and Qualcomm.

And good news for everyone else.

yoz-y 13 hours ago

Yes and no. Having more competition in the space is excellent news. However I am sad that the world interdependence is eroding as most other countries seem to sit on their hands and happily outsource every bit of manufacturing to a single country.

cromka 13 hours ago

Except this trend is actually reversing now, with fabs being built outside of Taiwan?

cubefox 12 hours ago

It's not reversing, it's continuing the trend of more and more manufacturing moving to Chinese companies. It already happened to TVs and it's currently happening with RAM.

TSiege 12 hours ago

I think describing what's happening "other countries seem to sit on their hands and happily outsource every bit of manufacturing to a single country" is disingenuous. It's been dubbed China Shock 2.0 and it's being taken very seriously by the EU. The US admin is a joke and too busy shooting itself in both feet to have coherent policy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Shock_2.0

1234letshaveatw 12 hours ago

yet somehow the outcome for the US has been much better. EU wins on paper though, yay!

oblio 11 hours ago

> outcome for the US has been much better

Is this better outcome for the US in the room with us?

nxm 11 hours ago

Compare any measurable economic and investment stat in EU vs US

makingstuffs 11 hours ago

What happens when you compare quality of life? Or workers rights? Pretty sure that your average person cares more about those two data points…

saturn8601 10 hours ago

That might be a mirage temporarily made reality by outsourcing defense to the US, manufacturing to China and the work required for GDP growth to refugees.

All three will be going away sooner or later.

AngryData 8 hours ago

How is locally producing military equipment versus buying extremely expensive US uberl33t overkill hardware suppose to hurt the EU? It not like the US was just giving Europe free armaments.

Yeah sure they won't be producing any F35s or million dollar per shot missiles, but was that a good idea to start with? Are they worth the money when once again lots of inexpensive arms are shown to be more useful in modern wars than a few handfuls of expensive ones? Both Iran and Ukraine have shown that one side being a few steps ahead in military technology and willing to dump money on equipment still has limited returns. There is no "I win" technology apart from indiscriminately killing most of the entire population, which just makes you an existential enemy to the rest of the planet and erases 95% of the value in taking that territory.

saturn8601 7 hours ago

Its really not that obvious to you? Because not having US bases on site and technology sharing and agreements takes money away from entitlements. France tried to cut entitlements by a tiny bit and the yellow vest movement was born. In the long run the Yellow Vests might end up losing everything as a result.

Regardless of the tech stack the work still needs to be done and now the EU has to do it. The Eu does not have infinite money, in fact they have less than the US so there will be cuts elsewhere.

anon48293 8 hours ago

Pretty sure almost every European would celebrate any of these things

saturn8601 7 hours ago

If they did, they would have done it already. Instead when there was an attempt, some protested wearing yellow vests. There will be more. Whether or not the governments force the issue or they lose to the voters does not matter: Either way quality of life will suffer.

oblio 8 hours ago

Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-))

Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine.

> the work required for GDP growth to refugees

I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...

saturn8601 7 hours ago

>Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-))

And they will continue to do so. Just at a higher cost with no US to maintain bases and do technology cost sharing. That extra money has to come out from somewhere...it will be entitlements. Combine that with terrible demographics and that remaining manufacturing base will be built on a bed of sand. :)

>Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine.

Europe can insource everything that China makes. They are not stupid people. You mistake the benefit westerners got from outsourcing. It held back inflation in products because the value came from the living standards difference between chinese and EU people. Remove that disparity by bringing back everything and EU will be living with a lower quality of life because all those products will be significantly more expensive with no alternatives.

>I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...

Same point I have been making. The consequences of demographic collapse can be hidden away by having young tax paying peoples do the shit jobs that run the economy at low wages. Same thing the US does with illegal migrants. Remove that and the hidden costs are now dumped onto the population. Result: Lower living standards for those who remain.

Dah00n 11 hours ago

Sure if you are Bezos or Musk. Otherwise, no.

holoduke 10 hours ago

Gdp grew much faster in the US than in the EU. I believe the EU is the worst performer of the planet. No joke. And not surprising with the self destructive actions.

Sohcahtoa82 10 hours ago

This doesn't really refute what Dah00n said.

Sure, GDP in the USA is growing faster than the EU, but the question is who is benefiting from the increased GDP?

The answer is in Dah00n's comment. The rich are getting richer, while the population gets scraps. Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare, paid time off, maternity leave, better worker's rights, etc.

well_ackshually 10 hours ago

Because as everyone knows, GDP is _the_ indicator for well being of its citizens. Nobody in the US is in catastrophic health related debt, because the US's GDP grew so much <3

preg_match 9 hours ago

The GDP growing faster while quality of life doesn’t meaningfully improve is a bad, bad sign. It means we’re burning extra money just to stay afloat and break even. That’s worse than if the GDP didn’t grow.

wolvoleo 6 hours ago

The EU is doing just fine economically. It's a great place to live which matters much more than money. Also, the US has 40 trillion in debt. Every taxpayer owes $280k.

The EU is not perfect and recently they took a turn for the worse with shit like ChatControl and the ppwr killing small businesses.

But economically it's not a problem. It's not a race to be the richest, though America always makes everything a contest. We just need enough to live comfortably.

kroaton 9 hours ago

As if our EU leaders aren't a complete joke as well. Pushing ChatControl, fascism and gambling everywhere. We're just as much of a joke.

pydry 9 hours ago

It's not disingenuous. It was obvious this was happening 15 years ago and the US and EU could have done something about it back then.

The tendency to protect corporate profit margins is the western Achilles heel and China knew they could exploit that.

plutomeetsyou 12 hours ago

Countries and institutions should always produce things where they are excellent at producing, in forms of specialization and compete in terms of comparative advantages.

kridsdale1 12 hours ago

This is true until you add a layer of geopolitics to your analysis.

adwn 12 hours ago

This attitude, if followed without qualifications, is dangerously naive and shortsighted, as the last few years of geopolitical events have shown.

PowerElectronix 11 hours ago

Yes, and no. Yes because you are vulnerable to supply chain disruption by illwilled countries. But illwilled countries that disrupt supply chains greatly incentivise others to diversify supply away from them.

China could have the monopoly of rare earth production and refinery for all of eternity. But because of their reaction towards all the us allies when the us increased tariffs, I don't expect them to be relevant enough to disrupt markets with rare earths sanctions in 10-20 years.

kstenerud 11 hours ago

> But illwilled countries that disrupt supply chains greatly incentivise others to diversify supply away from them.

... Except when they can't in any meaningful span of time.

melasadra 11 hours ago

We surely cant be this naive after the recent history of:

- China weaponizing the world's dependence on rare earth

- The US weaponizing the world's dependence on SWIFT

- Russia weaponizing Europe's dependence on natural gas

- Iran weaponizing the the world's dependence of oil supply through strait of Hormuz

smallstepforman an hour ago

Russian are more than happy to sell you NatGas, why do you think they’re weaponising? Watch too much propaganda?

yoz-y 11 hours ago

Supply chain advantages make the country that produces most of the stuff progressively better at doing everything.

saturn8601 10 hours ago

Only if you have the people to do it. China has some of the worst birth rate in the world. In ~20 years that manufacturing capacity either goes to robots or goes away. Then what?

Yiin 10 hours ago

how is that different from the rest of the world?

saturn8601 7 hours ago

Rest of the world does not rely on manufacturing as a large chunk of its economy. Yes it will be painful for all, entire classes of products might just go away if they dont make sense in the new inflationary environment but countries will still likely suffer less than China overall.

don_esteban 10 hours ago

One of the (many) areas in which China is doing great is industrial robotics. Not the fancy dancing dogs, but robots that replace workers in factories.

saturn8601 7 hours ago

That why I said it either goes to robots or it goes away. Can the current robots replace something like this? I don't think right now but maybe they figure it out.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFYxSX6xP2U

don_esteban 6 hours ago

That factory looked like it employed a lot of easily replaceable manual work.

You don't have to replace 100% of workforce, replace just the ones whose work is the easiest to do by a robot.

Replacing 50% of workforce buys you enough time that by the time your available worker pool has shrunk 50%, robotics and AI will be much better and you will be able to replace another big chunk.

Production-wise, shrinking demographics are not such a big deal (they still have a lot of youth unemployment).

Shrinking demographics is a problem due to a) the ratio of workers vs seniors, b) shrinking overall demand pool -> shrinking economy c) smaller overall talent pool -> less diversity, less 'geniuses', i.e. the real drivers of innovation, and less capability to mobilize for great projects

goodluckchuck 10 hours ago

Families should always eat at the restaurants that produce the most excellent cuisine. /s

geysersam 9 hours ago

Those thing are not static! Changing them can be a political decision. It was a political decision in China to become excellent at manufacturing.

xphos 7 hours ago

While I agree in passing. I think saying you'll export all your work to places with worse labor laws is short-term thinking. Chinese companies are successful yes but they also don't necessarily compete fairly. We still can export large portfolios of goods to China. So to just say they are best because they have a government protected market, plus subsidies so we should abandon local is a bad optimization in the long term

deadlast2 12 hours ago

I don't think it's by choice just ask all those extinct manufacturers

saturn8601 10 hours ago

Maybe new companies can spring up and be competitive with AI assisted design. Im assuming the cost was too high for those old companies to survive right? Small nimble companies could theoretically compete in some segments vs large bloated slobs (even if they have AI as well). This is all just hypothetical thought.

RobotToaster 10 hours ago

It was a choice, western oligarchs handed China the means of production on a silver platter in the pursuit of short term profits.

wolvoleo 6 hours ago

And even that wasn't anything new. They did the same with Japan and then Taiwan. Remember when made in Japan was a joke, then made in Taiwan?

Now Japan is known for quality electronics and options and Taiwan for state of the art semiconductors.

Grombobulous 12 hours ago

I think Western people still call this situation “outsourcing” when in reality what is happening is that China is better at manufacturing than everyone else, and they’re starting to be better than everyone else at design and engineering, too.

When we buy software from Silicon Valley or a nice Mercedes Benz from Germany we don’t use this same language “outsourcing.”

Colloquially, outsourcing implies low quality or cheap price. No, what’s happening here is that China makes the best products in numerous categories and we are choosing to import them, because the best products are the most desirable.

throwaway63467 12 hours ago

Well at this point they are probably the only country in the world that can produce a car end to end starting from the raw iron ore and other elements up to the chips and software that runs on them (I’m sure they will still need to import some small stuff probably like Rhodium or Iridium maybe), who is going to compete with that? Everything done in country, no tariffs at all throughout the entire production cycle.

That said some of these industry especially metallurgical ones will never return to Europe or US as they basically destroy and pollute the environment on a large scale, in China that still seems acceptable but also might change promoting them to outsource to other countries which they already do in some areas I think.

coliveira 10 hours ago

> China that still seems acceptable

China has made a tremendous effort to move to a clean(er) industrial system, using a lot of renewables and clean energy and improving environmental standards. At this point production in China is probably the best for the environment compared to most countries, including the US that is deeply invested in oil production.

Danox 9 hours ago

China evidently is pushing to move to sodium ion batteries. They didn’t have to. They could’ve stuck with lithium. I’ll let you guess what what would’ve happened in the United States they would’ve said we don’t have to this lithium already works. Why do you want to upset the Apple Cart.

They are also moving close to a point where they will bring Thorium Reactors on line they don’t have to. They could just stick with uranium, but they’re not.

Is this part of the fact that they have engineers running a lot of of the things at the top of their government instead of lawyers?

They seem to be building a lot of infrastructure they are in the process of building several dams on the Brahmaputra River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medog_Hydropower_Station

UltraSane 9 hours ago

It does seem that China is run by engineers who like to build cool stuff.

UltraSane 9 hours ago

United States: 384 gCO2/kWh

China: 525 gCO2/kWh

https://ourworldindata.org/electricity-mix

AngryData 8 hours ago

But we do have to consider how the speed in which it is dropping. China uses about the same percentage of fossil fuels for energy production as the US right now, but more of it is coal so it is dirtier. However they are aggressively installing and promoting renewables and nuclear power, built themselves, and their pollution standards are rapidly increasing. While in the US renewable and nuclear investment is and has been pretty crappy.

Grombobulous 7 hours ago

The fact that China is not that far above the US while being the world's factory and having 4x the population is pretty impressive.

And like you said, China is putting a real effort in. I don't see the US trying to reduce domestic short hop flights with electric high speed rail. I don't see the US trying to replace gasoline cars with EVs. I don't see the US curtailing structural incentivization of pickup trucks and SUVs.

The main US policy seems to be "spend trillions on wars for oil" rather than accepting the inevitable decline of oil and planning around it.

geysersam 9 hours ago

I find it quite strange en people take a development that has happened over the last ~50 years, little more than half a lifetime, and confidently state that now "it will always stay like this". Things always change.

Imagine what those kinds of people would have said in China in the 70s, with western industries being vastly more advanced and efficient. "It's over, we will never catch up." they would probably have said. Wrong then, more wrong now.

rayoleary 3 hours ago

What are en People?

geysersam 3 hours ago

Thanks, should've been "when"

smallmancontrov 11 hours ago

China didn't get that way by magic. They ran the same playbook that allowed Alexander Hamilton to snatch manufacturing from Great Britain to the US, and the US gave up manufacturing for the same reason the UK gave up manufacturing (suppression of labor interests).

It will be interesting to see what China does. They aren't ideologically committed to exclusively serving the interests of the wealthy, but they still have lots of rich people in the (ahem) Communist Party, so who knows.

peezd 11 hours ago

I can't imagine it going any other way than what we've seen from every other country in your set of examples, honestly.

faitswulff 10 hours ago

China actually penalizes, imprisons, and even executes its billionaires, so that’s different.

Levitz 7 hours ago

Not very...?

In the west, billionaires are often able to get extremely favorable treatment by the law as an expression of the power money gives. This is not the case in China, in which the party stands at the top.

In practice that's just a difference of incentives that I'm not sure at all is beneficial for anything but an authoritarian regime.

hibikir 6 hours ago

The right way to read this isn't that all billionaires can face consquenecs, but that the line that makes sure you don't face consequences is quite a bit different than being a billionaire. You can still have a power center, and impunity, as long as you make sure your misbehavior doesn't embarrass the people with the actual power. Those are smart enough to not do the things they shouldn't in a way that can be made public, and therefore cause said embarrassment.

One can prefer a regime where it's very hard for people who abuse their power to avoid punishment if it's all public to one where the powerful are emboldened enough to be able to be shameless. Even worse when the shamelessness is seen as the purest display of power, and thus people compete in their public misbehavior. But still, understand that the real barrier to punishment in the first case is not to avoid doing bad things, but to make sure that the witnesses either don't exist, or are too scared to say anything.

A judicial system that actually has no sacred cows would be better in all cases, but the sacred cows everywhere do their best to make sure this doesn't happen.

xanthor 10 hours ago

China and Vietnam are the only countries worldwide which have executed bankers for corruption in recent decades. No ahem necessary.

geysersam 9 hours ago

It's striking that they recently arrested one of the richest men in the country, the Evergrande founder, for fraud. Seems unthinkable in the US/Europe right now.

applicative 9 hours ago

Were they guilty?

Danox 8 hours ago

The people in China that made the decision on that antifreeze in toothpaste, and the 300 pigs in the river or that graffiti tower in Los Angeles across from the Staples Center. I don’t think those people walked.

That is not to say that in time they’ll start to do many of things that happens in the west where those at the 1% or 2% walk away, in time China may drop down to that level, on the other hand, I would like to believe the United States will start to have the same reaction that the country had when Sputnik went around the Earth and change course and I don’t mean sanctions, tariffs, wars, and threatening neighbors to the north and to the south.

xanthor 8 hours ago

Do you find that far-fetched?

handle584 an hour ago

Communists have been executing bankers since day one so not just recent decades, if anyone finds that impressive.

applicative 9 hours ago

The industrialization of USA comes after the civil war, thus long after e.g. Charles Dickens, to say nothing of Hamilton.

smallmancontrov 8 hours ago

Hamilton set the strategic agenda. Do you want to argue that US industrialization didn't follow the broad strokes of this plan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_on_Manufactures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_(economics)

Parallel: the industrialization of China for the most part happened after Deng Xiaoping, but are people wrong to credit him for setting the course?

andelink 7 hours ago

I mean, Deng Xiaoping is/was a huge influence in _our_ lifetimes. It was only the 1970s, just fifty years ago, when he was effectively the head of state. That’s like yesterday. I’m not saying Hamilton doesn’t have the influence you’re describing, but it’s not really an equal comparison given the huge difference in timeframes. Late 1700s is a ways away vs the 70s.

smallmancontrov 6 hours ago

You're pivoting. Alexander Hamilton had the influence on America's foreign policy that I said he had.

rayiner 11 hours ago

I think it’s a matter of perceptions catching up to reality. 15 years ago China was definitely still ripping off american products down to the english silk screening.

yoz-y 11 hours ago

Fair point. Outsourcing was not the right word to use, China today makes products over all quality ranges and almost always they are cheaper than any other alternative. “Giving away” would be a better word.

saati 10 hours ago

It's manufactured in Taiwan.

Danox 9 hours ago

The west is interested in funneling most of the money to the top no matter what for the last 60 years that has been the drum beat/cry It can’t be done. It can’t be done.

In America, there is one fast food place that does it differently than everyone in the market they don’t franchise and they don’t lease/rent.

They own everything as they expand (the land and the building), which means it’s a little bit slower when you expand, but they don’t care but they are very profitable.

The owner probably gets a call every other week from large equity companies trying to sell them on doing it like everybody else and their pitch they can make you a worldwide company if you just let them in to f you.

Mistletoe 6 hours ago

Who is the fast food place?

rayoleary 4 hours ago

The tension is killing me… who is the fast food joint?

geerlingguy 3 hours ago

I'm guessing Chick-Fil-A?

kevvok 3 hours ago

Can't be them because they franchise. My guess is In-N-Out

nunez an hour ago

CFA franchises, but their program is very strict and requires an unusually high amount of upfront capital

Brybry 12 hours ago

Xiaomi's Xring O3 is manufactured by TSMC N3P process in Taiwan. [1]

MediaTek Dimensity 9500 is also manufactured by TSMC N3P process in Taiwan. [2]

There was no world interdependence change (unless one considers China and Taiwan to be the same countries).

[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-launches-XRing-O3-claim...

[2] https://www.notebookcheck.net/MediaTek-Dimensity-9500-Proces...

szatkus 11 hours ago

MediaTek is a Taiwanese company. Xiaomi could put any backdoor that the government tell them to install and TSMC won't be able to catch that.

Dah00n 11 hours ago

Do you say the same about Intel, Amd, etc. or is it only big bad China?

InTheArena 10 hours ago

There's been 40 years of documented push back when western governments try to backdoor things - starting with clipper. Pushback is not always successful - but it's far more transparent then China.

linkregister 10 hours ago

Are there any documented cases of backdoors being present in Chinese hardware at time of manufacturing?

bryant 10 hours ago

Two just this year, CVE-2026-66747 and CVE-2026-11405.

linkregister 10 hours ago

Those are both great examples. I think this doesn't obliterate my point, though it weakens it. The manufacturer in CVE-2026-11405 is already out of business, and the one in CVE-2026-66747 is unlikely to continue as a going concern.

Would Xiaomi or the CCP accept the reputational and legal risk of getting caught with a backdoor? Recall the CCP considered the arrest of the Huawei executive in Canada as an offense against itself.

hedora 10 hours ago

Probably, but you are asking the wrong question: Is it legal to produce non-backdoored networked devices or services in China?

The answer to that question in the US is within epsilon of “no” thanks to the cloud act.

Europe and China have passed similar laws. However, China has a reputation for passing laws then selectively enforcing them. Maybe if you get on the right side of the right party member, the answer might still be “Yes” there.

Anyway, the next question to ask is: Who would I rather backdoor my device?

I doubt the Chinese government cares much about me, and unless I vacation there it’s an international incident if they, say, hack my car and murder me by aiming it at a tree at 95mph, like the CIA apparently does now:

https://www.motor1.com/news/138679/wikileaks-claim-cia-hack-...

Of course, the US government banned cars from China. Presumably this is because they do not have the mandated remote murder network port open, or, if they do, the US doesn’t have the necessary permissions to access it.

holoduke 10 hours ago

Too many propoganda leads to expressions like yours. Sorry your story has zero foundation and is fox news quality.

hedora 10 hours ago

Like a stopped clock, Fox News is right once or twice a day.

For instance election tampering in the US is a well-documented thing: However it almost always favors republicans in districts with electronic voting machines that do not generate paper trails.

As for the person you are replying to, their claims have been documented by most media outlets, places like wikileaks, and their claims are backed by US legal requirements to backdoor stuff (like the US Cloud act).

Barrin92 6 hours ago

>There's been 40 years of documented push back when western governments try to backdoor things

A bit of selective memory necessary for that take given good old Crypto AG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG

szatkus 8 hours ago

My opinion about Trump is as bad as the next guy's, but we still have better relation with the USA than with China. And it's not like we have much choice.

BiteCode_dev 11 hours ago

There are already American backdoors on intel and AMD chips everywhere, we call them ME and PSP. Switching to chinese tech won't make it worse.

Now, if the EU would start make to make chips that have no subsystem to screw me over, that would be something.

graemep 10 hours ago

> Now, if the EU would start make to make chips that have no subsystem to screw me over, that would be something.

Why would they not do the same? They are very pro-surveillance for a start.

tensor 10 hours ago

Hopefully the same pushback that has so far stopped the worst of chat control would help. But even if not having more western alternatives would be very welcome. If you're in the US it may not resonate with you, but as a Canadian currently reading ongoing rhetoric about being annexed by the US I'd love to have options if things continue to go south with the status quo.

eigenform 8 hours ago

It's good to be skeptical about how we implement the idea of a "root of trust" in these machines, but matter-of-factly characterizing ME and PSP as "backdoor" is misleading and not useful.

linkregister 10 hours ago

I'm unaware of any actual hardware backdoors introduced by primary manufacturers in practice, especially those installed in Xiaomi hardware.

There are accounts of interdiction and post-manufacturing compromises, such as those revealed in the Snowden leaks (2013) and most recently by reporting about the Israeli security services' sabotage of Hezbollah pagers and 2-way radios. These projects didn't expose primary manufacturers to the reputational and legal risk of association.

Until there's evidence of backdoors implanted by these companies, it's better to adopt a "trust but verify" approach and use standard layered security practices to detect intrusion. Conventional network intrusion and insider threat campaigns carry less risk of failure and are simpler and cheaper to execute.

codersfocus 10 hours ago

Intel management engine

antonvs 9 hours ago

“It’s not a vulnerability, it’s a feature!”

theteapot 9 hours ago

Everyone relax. This guy on the Internet is unaware of any.

Dylan16807 9 hours ago

And are you aware of any? If nobody can find evidence then it's probably not a widespread risk.

linkregister 4 hours ago

Are you certain I'm a guy? I could be a particularly well-trained dog.

szatkus 8 hours ago

I'm only aware of some software backdoors in Chinese devices, but times when you could've reverse engineered a chip with microscope are long gone. If there are any it would be really difficult to find them.

orbital-decay an hour ago

What would you consider as good evidence of a backdoor? Apple got plenty of media coverup in Operation Triangulation, and even hardware experts defending it as a fuckup rather than a backdoor, providing it with great plausible deniability. Do you count it as evidence? If not, I can easily see any other company leaving these non-backdoors in their hardware with no damage to their reputation.

well_ackshually 10 hours ago

TSMC doesn't care what you put in your CPUs. Apple could tell them they want to build a CPU where 90% of the transistor footprint is for a new CIA Engine that takes pictures of your feet every three seconds to trace where you've been from the smell and TSMC's response would be "how many wafers do you want?".

gnfargbl 10 hours ago

> unless one considers China and Taiwan to be the same countries

The fact that the CCP is relaxed about core Chinese companies running their manufacturing in Taiwan might suggest that the CCP considers that it can make China and Taiwan one country, at a time of the CCP's choosing.

amelius 9 hours ago

That act could throw us all back into the dark ages, though.

bdhdhduuyd 9 hours ago

They already consider it as one country. The CCP sees Taiwan as a province of China.

manithree 7 hours ago

Or mainland China is occupied west Taiwan.

pydry 9 hours ago

They're intentional about economic integration because it will in theory make unification easier without a war.

yieldcrv 9 hours ago

Its the opposite

China isn’t going to invade China until after we get our semiconductors up and running in Arizona for real

(because US won’t have to think about that situation ever again)

removing dependence imperils that island, CCP already has an EUV machine so the inevitable sanctions and export controls on ASML’s in Europe won’t matter either

0cf8612b2e1e 8 hours ago

It technically does not matter today. Sure the SOTA fabs only exist in a few places, but it’s not like a 2010/2015/2020 era chip is unusable trash. All of which are more geographically distributed.

cgio 7 hours ago

For any critical workload a chip is considered trash after 5-7 years. They still run , of course, but increased incidents on platforms that are supposed to be 99.99 are hard to work with. Now if you mean there’s unused stock of those , that would maybe work, but I am not aware of significant unused stocks.

0cf8612b2e1e 6 hours ago

I am talking about making new chips on older nodes. If China can only build 7nm, but TSMC is at 3nm, that’s unfortunate, but they will survive.

yieldcrv 4 hours ago

I agree, a move on Taiwan sets semiconductor industry back like 5 years at this point, down from what I’d say was 10 just last year

yeah equity asset values are going to tank but US will get serious about the supply chain immediately (which is already very much in progress), plus all the older nodes to alleviate some pressure off of the active compute demands

m00x 9 hours ago

I've lived in Taiwan for a large part of my life.

They would lose all of TSMC if they do any military actions. It's not the fact that the CCP thinks that they can make Taiwan and China a country, it's the the fact that most of China does in fact consider them as one country. Taiwan is ready to defend themselves, but are very happy keeping their relationship with China the way it is.

YetAnotherNick 9 hours ago

My bet would be that invasion wouldn't look like quick war, but slow control of political power either through light force like economic blackmail, or through something similar to what US did with Venezuela.

Now that US has already opened the gate to labelling nation head as drug seller, this just eases things for China.

conception 8 hours ago

Also the US has very publicly shown they don’t have the ability to effectively wage war over any period of time.

sailfast 7 hours ago

Yes and no. The Iran war is deeply unpopular and won’t even pass congressional approval for money. It’s being fought from pocket change budgets because they know they can’t pass a funding bill for it. Also not the same kind of war.

Any period time? US waged war for 20+ years in Afghanistan. Pretty effectively! To what end? Not an end an army can really achieve so… there you are.

But a war that might actually be popular? To save the world from communist dictators and make sure we have chips for our precious devices? I wouldn’t count out the United States. Or nuclear weapons, which still exist and are a thing.

wongarsu 7 hours ago

And it'd be the kind of war the US is best at. Boots on the ground, against conventional military, with a civilian population that is on the side of the US forces

No guerilla warfare, no insurgents, no need for extended beyond-visual-range warfare that depletes missile stockpiles

fc417fc802 7 hours ago

> no need for extended beyond-visual-range warfare that depletes missile stockpiles

Was with you until that last one. If you haven't noticed missiles, drones, and interceptors have played a central role in ukraine.

majormajor 6 hours ago

How many boots on the ground could you get and how quickly/safely? The supposed opposition here is MUCH closer to the island.

KPGv2 an hour ago

The war over Taiwan wouldn't be done by soldiers on Taiwanese soil. So you wouldn't need many boots on the ground in a literal sense.

But if you mean in a metaphorical sense, how long until the 7th Fleet could get to Taiwan, the answer is 0 days for first response, 3 days for everything located in Japan, and less than a week for the full mobilization of the 7th Fleet (that's 50+ ships and nearly 30K soldiers). The entire Pacific fleet could be there in a week and a half.

(Granted, we're assuming competent US leadership, which is not the current administration.)

r_lee 7 hours ago

just a gut feeling, but if they had to for some reason, I feel like they'd just go in and bomb as much strategic assets and invade, because in their eyes aside from Taiwan, there isn't much left to "unify" and it'd be historic, not something they'd need to do every decade or even century

I feel like Russia thought the same of Ukraine, even though it is way bigger

AtlasBarfed 6 hours ago

Any country that competently adopts Ukrainian drone technology cannot effectively be invaded currently. And that's for a continental invasion.

Taiwan? All surface ships are sitting ducks. Troop transport ships would get absolutely decimated, and then the landing troops would get swarmed by drones all over again, and then they have to maintain logistics to the small minority that land (good luck with that). And that's without naval drones.

With naval drones? I have no idea how China gets anything across the strait.

And all the above is true for a competently organized Chinese invasion. Which it won't be.

decimalenough 9 hours ago

"Very happy" is a bit of a stretch, since a significant proportion of Taiwan would prefer to jettison the current pretence of being "One China" and become fully independent.

But I agree that pretty much everybody will happily take the status quo over armed invasion.

larodi 6 hours ago

Considering all said so far, and events, it perhaps hardly makes real difference in the diamond era's franchised world.

wolvoleo 6 hours ago

I have a friend in Taiwan and he told me they're pretty happy because they have independence this way. If they go for more international recognition etc they'll gain nothing they don't already have but they'll upset the balance and give the CCP a reason to invade. So it will only make things worse.

And a lot of people are sympathetic with the Chinese, just not their government.

I've only visited Taiwan once and I only have one friend there so perhaps what I'm hearing is not accurate.

tw1984 5 hours ago

> give the CCP a reason to invade. So it will only make things worse.

CCP is not threatening taiwan because it might go for independence. it is _ALL_ about kicking the US out of the west Pacific. because of that, it is never about what people in Taiwan believe/say/do.

It is only about the military balance of the west Pacific.

> And a lot of people are sympathetic with the Chinese, just not their government.

sympathetic of what?

20 years ago, you might be able to play the "CCP regime repressing the people in China" joke, you can't do it anymore especially in such topic of Taiwan. quality of life is significantly better in literally every aspect in China. Taipei in 2026 is getting more and more like a tier-3 Chinese city in 2016.

wolvoleo 5 hours ago

It seems to be about much more than just regional power. To China it's a matter of pride and it's a big factor in the century of humiliation.

Even when a country other than the US does something to benefit Taiwan, Beijing is super offended.

And by sympathetic I mean feeling kinship. And the whole concept of bringing everything down to a matter of wealth is so American.

Dylan16807 4 hours ago

> And the whole concept of bringing everything down to a matter of wealth is so American.

They said "quality of life". Even if they had said wealth that correlates with quality of life so that wouldn't be a very good gotcha by itself, but they didn't say that.

AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago

> it is _ALL_ about kicking the US out of the west Pacific.

Hardly. It is all about Xi having declared that taking Taiwan by... I think it was 2049, but could be misremembering. Anyway, Xi made that a test of the legitimacy of the CCP, in some very public statements.

So, no, it's not about kicking the US out of the west Pacific. It's about Taiwan, and it's because if they don't, the CCP is illegitimate, by Xi's own word.

KPGv2 an hour ago

Xi will not be in power in 2049 because he will be dead. He'd be 96yo.

nl 3 hours ago

> it is _ALL_ about kicking the US out of the west Pacific

I think you are underestimating Chinese nationalism here quite dramatically!

Chinese views of sovereignty are quite independent of other concerns. Take for example their actions against Vietnam in the South China Sea, forcing Vietnam closer to the Philippines and even the US: https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

nemosaltat an hour ago

>sympathetic with the Chinese

and related to, with all that holds in an Eastern mindset. My adoptive grandmother was born in Shanghai in 1927. To my knowledge she never returned to Mainland China, partially because her relatives wen Telswhere when the communists came in.

edit: fixed one errant `t`

palata 8 hours ago

Isn't there some kind of "if you invade us we bomb our strategic factories" strategy? Like "if we can't have them, nobody can"?

wongarsu 7 hours ago

I think the plan is to defend, with allies motivated by the goal of saving TSMC facilities. If you destroy them the moment China declares war, Taiwanese allies might be much less invested

But at the same time everyone understands that the Taiwanese would destroy the facilities before they fall into Chinese hands

scarab92 7 hours ago

Why would China care if Taiwan blows up its fabs?

The talent is still there, so they could rebuild, or recruit the talent to work for Chinese mainland fabs instead?

r_lee 7 hours ago

wouldn't it be more likely that they'd flee to e.g. the US which would poach them and shower them with money?

maybe easier said than done but still

mycall 5 hours ago

Can't flee if your island is encircled and shooting down airplanes. China's military drills are executing exactly this.

golem14 5 hours ago

The US could do this TODAY. Just saying.

Dylan16807 4 hours ago

The US cannot offer lots of money to chip fab refugees today, because they are not refugees. Trying to headhunt people at a high quality job is very different.

mjevans 3 hours ago

The pay might not be as good but they could also go to Europe. Might depend where they've got family / contacts.

klausa 2 hours ago

> The talent is still there, so they could rebuild, or recruit the talent to work for Chinese mainland fabs instead?

Would you voluntarily work in a country that invaded and taken over yours?

Would you ask the same about Russia recruiting Ukrainians?

schrectacular 7 hours ago

If both those are true, then shouldn't we expect China to destroy them as part of first offensive?

mjevans 3 hours ago

Ideally every side would prefer a complete victory... who wouldn't? Reality rarely offers such clear outcomes.

Effectively the semantics are like a game of chicken and hostage combined. Might as well be a Prisoner's Dilemma.

deadfoxygrandpa 2 hours ago

its not official public policy, but there have been people in the US government saying that if there is a war then the US will bomb tsmc facilities in taiwan

dataflow 7 hours ago

Let's say they execute that plan. What then? Would it win them anything?

ivewonyoung 4 hours ago

The whole point of the plan is to remove some of the incentive for an invasion, thus making it less likely.

axus 8 hours ago

As a resident of Taiwan, would you say the average person there is comfortable obeying a strong central government, whoever that currently is?

As an American, I found the deference to authority very strange.

RussianBot9580 7 hours ago

As an American, what are ways in which you can not defer to an authority - in a way that actually matters? Sure, you can choose to go outside dressed in gaudy colors, or not dressed at all if you are in SF. Or choose to flip the Democrat/Republican bit once every 4 years (usually without any effect on domestic or foreign policy, though not lately). But in a regular person's life, what authority do you want to opt out of? The average person can't do a thing about their HOA board, let alone a government representative.

actionfromafar 7 hours ago

Really? Surely it can't be unfamiliar at least. So many GOPs anxiously mentioning Dear Leader every chance they get.

danparsonson 6 hours ago

> As an American, I found the deference to authority very strange.

Are schoolchildren in the US still required to recite the pledge of allegiance...?

hundchenkatze 2 hours ago

No, children can not be forced to stand and recite the pledge.

The Supreme Court ruled, in 1943, that it is unconstitutional to compel students to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-supreme-court/319/624.h...

podocarp 3 hours ago

What are you gonna do the day they don't need tsmc anymore

qmr 5 minutes ago

> They would lose all of TSMC if they do any military actions.

How is that?

Is there an action movie style self destruct sequence?

nl 3 hours ago

> CCP is relaxed about core Chinese companies running their manufacturing in Taiwan

This whole idea of collapsing everything to some single semi-military geo-political concern is naive and not at all how the world works.

Of course there are people in China who would prefer Xiaomi did all their manufacturing inside China, and there are others who prefer to build stronger economic ties between Taiwan and China to make Taiwan economically dependent on China.

There are others who want Xiaomi to dominate world mobile markets by any means necessary. There are others who want Xiaomi to make the most profit possible, and still others who want Chinese firms to race to match US companies technology on every dimension.

These concerns are all interlinked and play out over years in lots of micro decisions.

antris 3 hours ago

China and Taiwan are considered one country, even according to US https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12503

How do you make one country into one country? It's already one country and is treated as such by even countries that consider China an adversary

KPGv2 an hour ago

> China and Taiwan are considered one country, even according to US

Your link does not say what you think it does. My guess is you read the first sentence and saw "one-China police" and stopped. But the US's one-China policy is not the same thing as China's one-China principle.

The US's one-China policy is that (continental) China is a single China governed by the PRC. It's silent on Taiwan. But, considering the laws we have on the books declaring our commitment to ensuring the sovereignty of Taiwan, it's a hard row to hoe to get to "the US considers Taiwan to be territory the PRC has a right to control."

The US has an unofficial relationship with Taiwan simply to shut the CCP up. It's like when your partner is complaining about something you did, silence doesn't mean you agree that you messed up. Sometimes it just means you don't want a fight right now.

csomar 9 hours ago

So same as before?

markdown 9 hours ago

This is what was sold to – and often forced on – countries by the US and their allies via the IMF and World Bank. Global free trade meant that you only produced what you had an advantage in and bought what others could produce at lower cost.

sophrosyne42 7 hours ago

This would be interdependence expanding. Manufacturing isn't the only kind of economic activity

mschuster91 12 hours ago

No. Chinese dumpers undercutting everyone else and destroying the competition is never good.

Dah00n 10 hours ago

Was it bad when it was the US doing it against the UK? Or is it only when the people doing it eat more rice than us that it is bad? People said the same thing about the Japanese (they steal designs, they copy, it is bad quality, they are stealing our jobs, and so on).

chasd00 10 hours ago

> Was it bad when it was the US doing it against the UK? Or is it only when the people doing it eat more rice than us that it is bad?

dumping is always bad.

Levitz 7 hours ago

>Or is it only when the people doing it eat more rice than us that it is bad?

It's definitely different when the player doesn't even have to play by the market. Comparing US companies and Chinese companies is not apples to apples.

AngryData 8 hours ago

I will agree that dumping is probably just bad overall. But the US, and much of the rest of the world, allows it to happen both within and outside of their countries, sometimes even financially supporting it with government programs. So I really don't see why I should care that someone in China is doing it. We can't hold others to standards significantly higher than we hold for ourselves.

catigula 11 hours ago

Lol, no.

This is so stupid. China itself uses the "dominate and corral" model for their industries, and had severe tariffs to grow their various industrial bases, such as automotive.

germandiago 10 hours ago

From the outside, it is still competition.

If they go too far to impose their system, we stop buying :)

catigula 10 hours ago

Except they've now ground your native industry under their boot and have total monopoly control because you've given up your critical infrastructure. You can no longer stop buying. That isn't an option.

This is geopolitics 101; your fantasy version is decades out of date.

xanthor 10 hours ago

Same is true of US, Germany, Britain, etc

catigula 10 hours ago

The US had open markets and low tariffs for a long time; China's automotive tariffs were amongst the strongest in the entire world.

xanthor 8 hours ago

And in the 19th century when US industry was developing?

speed_spread 7 hours ago

If the Linux drivers aren't up upstreamed and the chips aren't sold to anyone else, meh.

cromka 13 hours ago

Now imagine if they actually provided a good support for Windows and Linux for those chips and started selling it to OEMs for Desktop/Laptop use.

esperent 13 hours ago

Or allowed you to run Linux on their phone. We can only dream.

cromka 12 hours ago

They do allow to unlock their bootloaders, which is rather rare, which in turn allows to run Linux. Seeing as Chins just migrates their entire administration to Linux, it's not far fetched to assume they'll support Linux on their laptops very soon.

rootsudo 12 hours ago

Caveat on the unlocking of bootloader.

It is very much harder to do now. There is a lot of friction introduced now to it.

05 11 hours ago

> They do allow to unlock their bootloaders

Kafka himself would be proud if their unlocking process[0], but technically sure, they allow it

> Press "Apply for unlocking" at exactly 12:00 AM GMT+8 (pressing it too late will cause the "application quota limit reached" error. Use this website to check the time) "Account Error" might show up. If that happens, retry after 10 days

[0] https://github.com/realdtn2/xiaomi-unlocking-rooting-guide

ruszki 10 minutes ago

This is even funnier than how some people defended Apple, that they allow changing OSs on Apple silicon MacBooks.

mrheosuper 3 hours ago

I'm not experience here, but are there any obstacle to move from "unlocking bootloader" to "running full blow linux on phone" ? I imagine it can't be that simple(mostly driver issue).

d3Xt3r an hour ago

Lots of obstacles. The biggest obstacle is having access to the kernel sources. Even if you've got access to the kernel source, driver blobs are a big issue, because if you move to a newer kernel the old drivers may not work.

Take a look at the PostmarketOS Device Wiki[1], you'll see that even phones released 10+ years ago (like Xiaomi Redmi 4) still do not have 100% functionality.

In saying that, in this era of LLMs and reverse-engineering, it may not be long before some of these blockers are reverse-engineered and we might end up with a fully functional Linux distro on older phones like this.

ksec 12 hours ago

I wouldn't be surprised if Xiaomi intend to use this for their laptops with Windows 11 once the software ecosystem matures. Which both ARM and Qualcomm are working on. But I still believe in terms of PC usage it is all going to be Nvidia.

throwawayffffas 10 hours ago

This is probably the plan for xiaomi along with servers and gpus down the road.

camillomiller 9 hours ago

I sense a US blacklisting coming

HumblyTossed 7 hours ago

Is it really this fast or just this fast on benchmarks?

ColdStream 5 hours ago

The age old problem of mobile chips have brilliant performance for about 15 seconds until they thermal throttle.

If you are just using apps, 15 seconds is more than enough to launch and setup an app, for anything more it will be down graded a little.

Still dang impressive but the form factor becomes the limiting factor.

cma an hour ago

The browser can sometimes idle a lot until there is a touch/scroll event so it can be good for responsiveness during that kind of bursty stuff too.

KPGv2 an hour ago

You said it. It was over 100 F here where I live, and I was on my phone outside trying to get work done while watching my kid, and I couldn't even type because of the thermal throttling triggered just by it being so damn hot outside.

vachina an hour ago

Solar radiation.

Try working in the shade. The max brightness isn’t helping either.

pclmulqdq 40 minutes ago

I am pretty sure that's a feature, not a problem. The idea of these chips is to rush to idle on webpage-like workloads, and then otherwise use as little idle power as possible. Games and heavy work are generally not the intended workload.

faitswulff 3 hours ago

This video compares the Mediatek Dimensity to the Xring 03 (at the given timestamp 329s in) and finds significant differences in physical layout and performance: https://youtu.be/BCCJuOopLK8?t=329

strictnein 13 hours ago

Missing the most important metric: processing power per watt.

I have some server CPUs laying around that can also beat Apple CPUs. But putting them in a compact, densely packed, sealed box (aka a phone) would result in a fireball and almost no battery life.

cyp0633 12 hours ago

some chinese youtubers have posted their test results, seems pretty good, but the devices have been provided to them in advance fwiw

StilesCrisis 12 hours ago

I'm sure it benchmarks well, but does it actually have good battery life?

frollogaston 12 hours ago

Even aside from battery life, high TDP means thermal throttling under sustained load. Which most of these benchmarks don't really test, or if they did, the ambient temperature affects the results.

mort96 9 hours ago

Did their test results include power draw?

zamadatix 12 hours ago

> I have some server CPUs laying around that can also beat Apple CPUs

In multicore, sure. In most single threaded workloads as well? That'd be interesting enough on its own, regardless of wattage (though that'd make it even more interesting), as my A19 device gives my overclocked 9800X3D a run for its money (and some losses) in single threaded workloads. Considering that's the only thing the 9800X3D is really targeting, it's impressive beyond just whether or not it does so with less power.

kccqzy 10 hours ago

No I don’t think you can find a single CPU that can beat Apple CPUs in a single-threaded workload.

bigyabai 10 hours ago

Unless you're benchmarking single-threaded SIMD: https://lemire.me/blog/2020/12/13/arm-macbook-vs-intel-macbo...

mrheosuper 3 hours ago

it's 6 Year old blog, apple has improved a lot with ST, i argue that it's even more than Intel and AMD in the same timeframe.

throwa356262 9 hours ago

O3 is supposed to draw 25% less than O1, which according to reviews of their tablets did not throttle.

Their next Fold phone (TBA September) will use O3. I guess we will find out very soon.

nomendos 5 hours ago

New CPU is 100% ARM design and nothing by Xiaomi other than "Chinese menu" configuration (i.e. how many blocks of this or that type,..). Apple CPU is a full custom design that just complies with ARM. Xiaomi Xring O3 CPU is designed by ARM and Xiaomi (as well as Mediatek) did not do any CPU design, other than custom bus interconnects, physical implementation on TSMC 3nm, an in-house NPU, and adopting next-generation LPDDR6 memory support.

yanhangyhy 3 hours ago

yeap, it's xiaomi's thing. it dont have the ability.

mrheosuper 3 hours ago

Everyone has to start somewhere, they achieve better performance than Tensor CPU on Pixel, to me that's an achievement.

dcrazy an hour ago

There’s a big gap between spec’ing an SoC by configuration code, and designing one from the ground up.

That difference amounts to who, if anyone, gets the credit for being competitive with Apple.

trvz 13 hours ago

"matches" could've also been written as "this year's product falls short of the competitor's last year one".

And multithreaded is 10 cores vs 6 cores.

I appreciate Apple being kept on their feet, but they're not dethroned yet.

nerdsniper 14 hours ago

M5 (iPad) AnTuTu: 3.5 million

XRing O3 AnTuTu: 5.5 million

---

M5 iPad Geekbench Single-Core: 3,556

M5 Max Geekbench Single-Core: 4,300

XRing O3 Geekbench Single-Core: 3,945

---

M5 iPad Geekbench Multi-Core: 15,285

M5 Max Geekbench Multi-Core: 29,200

XRing O3 Geekbench Multi-Core: 15,221

throwa356262 13 hours ago

I dont think Geekbench is a good cross-platform benchmark, given what it measures

nerdsniper 12 hours ago

I don’t either, but these are the only benchmarks Xiaomi provided!

simjnd 10 hours ago

Geekerwan has an excellent video [1] where they run the new Spec 2026 benchmark on the development board they received.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCCJuOopLK8

TiredOfLife 11 hours ago

Geekbench is the only consumer usable cross-platform benchmark. It matches SPEC differences between platforms

throwa356262 9 hours ago

Does it test hardware, or hardware plus software that can be different on different platforms?

wtallis 7 hours ago

What degree of OS-indepedence do you think is reasonable to expect from a consumer-facing benchmark suite like Geekbench?

wmf 7 hours ago

AFAIK it's mostly self-contained outside of basics like malloc. If you have any evidence to the contrary, post it.

comboy 13 hours ago

This is nothing. China is about to start doing their own 5nm. When they roll out their own silicon at scale, I don't think there's catching up, nobody can match their manufacturing capabilities. Not even close.

culi 12 hours ago

They are already doing 5nm with multi-patterning DUV. But that's not the same as EUV machines. It is not nearly the same scale of production (with yields as low as 20%). They are still a few years away from indigenous EUV. Though I have to admit the shenzhen breakthrough was pretty impressive

rshm 9 hours ago

Is DUV inherently 5nm a 20% yield class or it's matter of process improvement that China is struggling compared to taiwan or Intel ?

culi 7 hours ago

For multi-patterning DUV, each patterning/etching step accumulates defect risk. Actually now that I'm reading about it, 20% is the better end of the spectrum. I don't think technology could possibly improve it much beyond that.

I believe the theoretical maximum yield for multi-patterning DUV at 5nm and 7nm is 30-40%

It's not economically sustainable/viable long term. China is only doing it because they've been forced to by the trade war Trump started against them in his first term (Biden didn't really back down either and now Trump 2 tried to ramp it up even higher). China is okay with such low yields because its supposed to be a temporary solution until they achieve domestic EUV tech.

amluto 26 minutes ago

Surely yield is very much a function of the size of the device in question and its tolerance for defects. I don’t think it makes sense for a technology to have a theoretical maximum yield that’s a constant number unless it somehow destroys entire wafers with highish probability.

kajaktum 4 hours ago

Yea I dont think they show ant signs of slowing down. With how massively slow the West are, they are gonna get swallowed up.

LPisGood 12 hours ago

Suspiciously ignored is power consumption. That’s the biggest and most useful metric often ignored because it’s less flashy than speed.

subscribed 11 hours ago

I'm also interested in the security features of this new CPU. Where doesn't it sit compared to Apple and ARM (Qualcomm, Titan)?

Modern processor without memory tagging for example is a little..... dated, given how much the new AIs accelerated the vulnerability discovery in all the apps and system components.

LPisGood 11 hours ago

I have heard it said that security is the new power when it comes to microarchitecture. I feel like that’s something security enjoyers tell themselves to be happy.

subscribed 8 hours ago

I don't understand your comment - did you want to say that hardware security is overrated or that security and microarchitecture don't mix?

Or maybe that security doesn't have a practical application?

lukan 8 hours ago

Or maybe just a joke, that most of the world does not care so much about security, unlike security minded people would like to?

MBCook 11 hours ago

Good question.

I’m sure Apple’s chips could do better in single core if they were willing to push the power envelope way higher too.

Multi-core is easy to beat, just add more cores until you win. There were already chips that beat the M series just by having way more threads/cores.

dannyw 2 hours ago

Apple’s devices generally have no or very underpowered thermal solutions; but it also partly regulates battery life.

(Seriously, they rely on air cooling for Neo and MBA — these chips hit 105deg easily and throttle, intentionally)

Adding a thermal pad to a Neo or MacBook Air gives significant boosts peak and sustained performance; whether in benchmarks or real world video renders; but it also reduces your battery life by a little, as there’s less thermal throttling forcing wattage down.

And no, the battery is not connected to the chassis (heatsink), it doesn’t have increased temps.

maxglute 10 hours ago

IMO bot that important practically - SiC batteries, active cooling, bypass charging etc - if one really cares about sustained performance (gaming etc), PRC has phones segments big on mitigating thermal throttling. Exclude benchmark drama, golden samples, retail units still vastly outperform passively cooled phones with "better" silicon on long sessions. Otherwise there aren't many usage case where power consumption matters between that can't be trivially made up by slightly better or larger battery and/or passive cooling.

throwaw12 13 hours ago

I love this, really, competition on a global scale is good for us, bad for greedy US corporations.

For example, I consider Meta as bigger threat to society, than Xiaomi, DeepSeek, z.ai and other top Chinese companies (haven't used Chinese social media, so can't comment about its content)

ford 12 hours ago

Do you still believe this considering those companies live and die by the CCP? Would you feel differently if scale was reversed and Meta was the upstart trying to compete with Xiaomi/etc?

I'm right there with you questioning Meta's value for society, but I do believe it has less opportunity for abuse/manipulation

throwaw12 11 hours ago

> those companies live and die by the CCP

I don't care about internal politics of a state, as long as they are not killing people deliberately on a daily basis or invading other countries and killing their people.

How government is structured is up to Chinese people to decide

> Would you feel differently if scale was reversed and Meta was the upstart trying to compete with Xiaomi/etc?

It's not only about scale and upstart, it's also about how much are they harming society.

aaroninsf 11 hours ago

It would be quite a demonstration of supremacy for any Chinese firm to to equal or exceed the damage done (and ongoing) to western society by meta.

creaturemachine 11 hours ago

Considering Meta lives and dies by the White House, where abuse and manipulation have become SOP, I'm not sure the CCP stacks up as the boogeyman anymore.

apparent 11 hours ago

When you say "greedy US corporations" do you mean that these US corporations are uniquely greedy, or that all corporations are greedy, and this is bad for the ones in the US? Do you think that corporations in China, which in many cases are subsidized by the government, are also greedy?

throwaw12 10 hours ago

all for profit companies are greedy by their nature, but US companies are on a different level because you can 'buy' the government by lobbying or supporting their election campaigns or break the law and eventually make sure law is changed to fit your business (e.g. first taxi medallions adjusted the law for themselves, and then Uber)

Same is very difficult to do in China (look what happened to Jack Ma) or in Europe, because you have to follow some regulations

wmf 7 hours ago

Speaking of "us" it seems that Samsung/Mediatek/Xiaomi/Huawei SoCs are not available in the US.

Alien1Being 13 hours ago

Xiaomi also make amazing cars.

"WSJ

I Test Drove a Chinese EV. Now I Don't Want to Buy American Cars Anymore.

https://www.wsj.com/tech/personal-tech/chinese-ev-test-drive...

"

warkdarrior 12 hours ago

That journalist may not want to buy American cars, but thanks to our enlightened government, they must buy American cars, since everything else is taxed significantly or banned altogether. Free market for all! /s

testing22321 12 hours ago

The CEO of Ford directly said if Chinese EVs are allowed into the US it will be the end of US auto manufacturing.

They know they are inferior, and choose not to compete, just lobby for more regulations to keep competitors out. Free market, haha.

dirck-norman 11 hours ago

China is nowhere near “free market”. Their EV sector received more government subsidies in the last 15 years than the entire U.S. automobile market since inception. The total subsidies make up half of the market cap of their entire EV industry.

250 billion in EV subsidies from China. 10 billion by the U.S.

testing22321 11 hours ago

You’re forgetting the 9.3$ billion given to us automakers to bail them out that was never recovered.

oblio 11 hours ago

The US auto industry is also subsidized by all aspects of American life requiring a car outside of NYC and a few big cities.

fedpost 11 hours ago

Also just directly by the USG, see "Cash for Clunkers".

thefourthchime 11 hours ago

Yep, it's pretty much just illegal dumping.

Dylan16807 9 hours ago

The vast majority of that money went to car purchasing assistance. It helps build the industry up but it doesn't change the actual price.

runako 11 hours ago

> The total subsidies make up half of the market cap of their entire EV industry.

Didn't Tesla essentially stay afloat for years via government subsidies (e.g. government-mandated carbon credits)?

Didn't the US only recently end its direct subsidies for EV buyers?

Don't US taxpayers provide an enormous ongoing subsidy to ICE vehicles by underwriting the security of the oilfields in the Gulf?

Don't US taxpayers in effect subsidize US automakers by ensuring they do not have to compete in the market with the best available vehicles?

More to the point: American free-marketeerism was never about the other side, it was about the US living its own professed values at home. We didn't shackle our press in discussions about the USSR because the USSR chose to shackle its own press. Our lockout of Chinese EVs rankles in part because it's a deviation, at home, from our own professed values.

dirck-norman 9 hours ago

This is a false equivalence.

Adding carbon credits the U.S. is close to 20 billion in EV subsidies.

The ENTIRE EU spent 125 billion.

China supplied 250 billion to a 400 billion dollar industry and is facing overproduction. It’s dishonest to say it’s the same.

Free market capitalism isn’t binary. If that’s what you think, you’re gravely misinformed.

Dylan16807 9 hours ago

Just to be clear, that 250 billion is for 15 years and 400 billion is the current per-year number.

The subsidies were around 25% of sales in 2018 and have dropped down to about 10%.

And of that 250 billion, half is a sales tax exemption and a quarter is purchase rebates. That bulk of the money doesn't lead to unfair competition.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil...

runako 8 hours ago

> dishonest to say it’s the same.

I literally didn't say that it was?

In any case, the point is that the US also subsidizes markets, including the auto markets. China is far from unique in this. As you say, free market capitalism isn't binary, and in this case all parties are subsidizing to some degree.

dirck-norman 8 hours ago

> I literally didn’t say that it was?

> and in this case all parties are subsidizing to some degree.

Textbook false equivalence.

maxglute 8 hours ago

This is false equivalence.

Direct producer subsidies for PRC EV was <100B, less than US injected into US auto, not much more than Euro auto. The latter just poorly, i.e. pork barrel / jobs programs that does not raise baseline competitiveness.

Most of CSIS muh PRC 200b-400b includes rebates/taxes AND subsidies to upstream, i.e. battery industry which used more than cars. AKA they bundled energy sector to skew PRC numbers.

For comparable you'd have to include all historic US/EU auto subsidies, AND ASSOCIATED upstream subsidies like MOST OF fossil industry, related diesel/fuel discounts... etc etc in which case US/EU have been rebating to the tune of trillions.

Strict auto-auto sector equivalence = PRC subsidized less to commoditize their car industry in fraction of time, which is not remotely "overproduction", they still barely exports 20%... they'd have to export 50/75%+ to reach shares of EU/JP/SKR etc and even then those absurd export%s not treated as overproduction. PRC would need to be exporting ~20m more cars then they do now to even qualify.

Auto+energy sector equivalence (the 200-400b figure), PRC not even on the axis in equivalence scenario.

E:cleaner language

bpfrh 8 hours ago

Carbon credits where open to any companies, so it wasn't a unfair subsidy.

EV incentives where also not limited to us companies.

runako 8 hours ago

Every country distorts its markets in different ways. It's still silly to pretend the US is free of these kinds of distortions.

gpt5 7 hours ago

That's just whataboutism that ignores the order of magnitude scale differences of the subsidies that were provided in China in the original comment.

runako 7 hours ago

It's really not. No serious analysis reduces the complexity of markets to a single number in a single sector. In particular, it takes willful blindness to look at subsidies in the EV market and ignore other energy markets.

You're also ignoring the most important point, my last point about values. The comment is still up, feel free to re-read it.

cpursley 10 hours ago

Even without the subsidies, at this point, they’re arguably making better cars.

7734128 10 hours ago

No, it's actually 200 000 trillion for both countries.

Source: same as yours

asadotzler 8 hours ago

The only serious EV maker in the US has received more US subsidizing than any single Chinese maker.

twobitshifter 2 hours ago

Isn’t this just good strategy? Shouldn’t government subsidize the things it wants more of?

slashdave 4 hours ago

Well, what do you expect him to say? Consider the audience.

thefourthchime 11 hours ago

There was a lot of hype about the SU7. They killed it with pre-orders. But their target for the year at 550K isn't gonna happen as they're sold about a 180k so far this year.

ilyassanida 10 hours ago

My last car and my current one, both are from china (BYD, Xiaomi). these chinese brands really went very far compared to the rest of the world

ColdStream 5 hours ago

China is hungry in a way others aren't. It is driving them to push far harder and faster because of this. Don't know it will be sustainable long term but it looks good now.

weezing 10 hours ago

I don't want buy American cars either. European, Korean or Japanese are the way to go.

markdown 8 hours ago

Odd to list things in reverse order.

alasano 8 hours ago

Tech/feature wise it's not even close between Chinese cars and the rest of the world.

No idea about reliability or anything else but just as pure tech demos they seem incredible.

ColdStream 5 hours ago

The one thing I have heard form mechanics is that cars from BYD seem to has better than expected manufacturing and engineering. They haven't cut corners were you would expect for the price. Not sure how the electrics will hold a decade into the future but but they have good bones.

tambourine_man 12 hours ago

“…of course, Apple may soon announce their next processor”

I’m pretty sure they will, as they have, like clockwork, in the same month, for over a decade.

Schiendelman 12 hours ago

And reportedly early next year they have another coming out of band.

smith7018 11 hours ago

Specifically, the M7 is supposedly coming out in the Spring. The M6 band is going to be so small because the M7 will have a lot of AI-focused upgrades and Apple doesn't want to waste manufacturing on M6 Pro/Max/Ultra chips when they can start building the M7 sooner.

otterley 14 hours ago

I'm curious as to the performance per watt. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

diabllicseagull 13 hours ago

no free lunch for a given process node I guess. It's using TSMC’s 3nm N3P.

simjnd 11 hours ago

The GPU performance is insane too, approaches M5 results at ~20W.

Of course it will be in Android phones so it will be throttle hard past 4W and will have terrible drivers.

I wish phones moved to HPB packaging and active cooling so we could have sustained 10W and use them as light workstations.

snowram 11 hours ago

That exist, kinda. Android gaming handhelds have mobile SoC and also active cooling. See Ayn and Retroid devices. Their (almost) throttle free is a very nice experience.

simjnd 10 hours ago

Yeah I have an Ayn Thor with a Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, it's great being able to play fairly demanding Windows games on this tiny device.

It's still PoP with the RAM stacked on top in a plastic casing so you need a pretty big fan to cool it since you have to go through insulating plastic, then the RAM to get to the CPU.

With a HPB packaging you can cool the CPU directly and could theoretically get the same amount of cooling power with a much smaller fan that could be integrated into a thing smartphone (à la RedMagic).

lostmsu 9 hours ago

Xiaomi smartphones were extremely well made at least a few years ago. Even the core software was impressive vs Google for example (try echo cancellation on any of your non-Xiaomi devices). Its only real problem is ads.

simjnd 9 hours ago

Yeah it wasn't a dig a Xiaomi specifically. All Android devices have broken Vulkan drivers. We have to rely on alternative open-source drivers (e.g. Turnip for Snapdragon) for real compatibility and performance.

jayd16 4 hours ago

Just get a laptop?

yaro330 13 hours ago

How is this news worthy? The cores are off the shelf C1-Ultra. Even Google got them in the new pixel.

bee_rider 12 hours ago

Apple is the least interesting company to compare against. They are in their own MacOS/iOS software ecosystem, which you want if you want and you don’t if you don’t. Not to be dismissive of either side of that, there are legit reasons to stay in or out of Apple’s ecosystem. But benchmarking points is not a reason anyone would switch operating systems, right?

What OS will these chips run and what is the competition on that platform? He makes a lot of comparisons to AMD and Intel in the post, why not benchmark against them?

MBCook 11 hours ago

They are the kind of single core right now, so they’re the most interesting comparison.

Do you want to compare to Intel/AMD? If these are destined for phones that’s not a useful comparison by your metric.

mschuetz 11 hours ago

Not at all. I specifically bought a MacBook Air M4, first Mac product in my life, for its fantastic performance in a passively cooled notebook. I have zero loyalty to Apple and usually use Windows. If someone else starts beating them perf wise, I'll happily switch again.

mrheosuper 3 hours ago

The air m4 is really the best sub-thousand-dollar laptop.

jorvi 10 hours ago

Linus specifically always buys Apple laptops to run Linux on because they're just that good. Even despite all the paper cuts.

throwa356262 10 hours ago

Linus Torvalds has in past used laptops from Apple, Lenovo and Dell and probably many more.

His current laptop is an Intel laptop.

RossBencina 2 hours ago

Daniel Lemire specialises in high-performance algorithm implementation. In recent years he has been impressed by specific performance characteristics of Apple's CPUs. For example, their ability to eek out the maximum possible throughput from a given instruction stream's data dependencies. My information may be stale, but when I read Daniel's comments I assume that Apple is being used for compariosn because it is the current leader, and take it as given that AMD and Intel are behind. You can probably find sources where he makes head-to-head comparisons with AMD and Intel. If you're not familiar with his work I can recommend it. The Wookash podcast interview is a gentle introduction, there is open source code and academic papers if that's more your thing.

sinuhe69 5 hours ago

I would find the news much more interesting if they put the new processor in a laptop with 48 GB DDR5 unified memory or more! Right now, M5 with its neural execution engines and unified memory architecture present a unique local AI computing platform.

dfedbeef 13 hours ago

Yay free markets China makes a fast chip Yay national security

angry_octet 8 hours ago

Anyone can make a fast CPU, but is it also a safe and secure CPU? Or does it have architectural defects as a consequence of the race to be fast?

See eg LoongLeak and the Loongson processor: https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity26/presentat...

Alpha3031 6 hours ago

Xiaomi are implementing ARM cores on an ARM ISA so any architectural defects would also affect other ARM processors.

waazy 13 hours ago

44mb of cache really highlights the bottleneck of how raw compute is cheap, but the real limit is memory latency.

ChuckMcM 7 hours ago

It is pretty amazing the creativity with compute architecture which is afforded by a zillion transistors.

cherioo 10 hours ago

Geekerwan's review is up, with caveat that this is the prototype board, not even packaged into a phone yet, but still shows some amazing results in spec 2026, 3dmark (gpu), perf-per-watt for single core and multi-core https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCCJuOopLK8 (you can turn on YouTube auto-dub)

pranav_tech26 7 hours ago

Impressive silicon progress, but real-world developer experience will hinge on sustained thermal throttling, Linux kernel support, and tooling ecosystem stability.

Melatonic an hour ago

Can we get a powerful arm CPU yet that is geared purely toward performance and just slap an AIO or water cooler on it ? Don't understand why this doesn't exist

nazgulsenpai 12 hours ago

I think it's great that the Chinese are catching up and can compete directly with the incumbents. The GPU space I find really exciting with several new IPs out there that aren't quite ready for primetime, but still fascinating.

Also, here's to hoping we get some relatively competitive Chinese DRAM flooding the consumer market someday soon.

maxglute 10 hours ago

PRC going to get have surplus of semi talent and equipment in a few years that food delivery companies Meituan probably going to starting making chips like they do LLMs. Only 60% joking.

ezekiel68 9 hours ago

"Let's isolate China's semiconductor industry," they said.

"This will all turn out well," they said.

trynumber9 9 hours ago

There is a nuance: Xiaomi is not Huawei. They were not sanctioned. This chip is made in Taiwan like all the non-Samsung competition.

ezekiel68 8 hours ago

Argh -- perfectly read. I was thinking of Huawei.

russli1993 2 hours ago

Huawei is launching a mobile soc built with logic folding. They take a single logic ip, like a cpu, and spread it's components across to dies and use hybrid bonding to combine top to bottom. For example the CPU SRAM on top and logic gates directly below. This reduces critical path, increases fmax, reduces power consumption. They claim this method allow them build faster, more power efficient, more function units with duv process than traditional duv. Will be interesting to benchmark after launch later this year